VelomobileWorld-Konversation

Beiträge
451
Ort
München Nord
Jan, i have another suggestion for improvement regarding the cable for the battery connection (especially in the case of a big and heavy Lupine Alpha battery).
Either a) extend the connecting cable in the Velomobile so far that the battery can be stowed away lying down at the bottom of the velomobile without any tension on the cables and plugs
or b) (in case of a shorter cable in the VM) attach a battery holder (either the Lupine "Rolf" or a 3M Duallock Velcro) by default in the Velomobil
or c) (in case of a shorter cable in the VM) add by default a sufficiently long extension cable to allow a)

in my DF XL 311 (RO #662) the cable was too short for a) (and option b) was not possible in the state of delivery). Additionally there was the wrong (female) plug in the VM (Lupine 7.2V) for the (male) battery plug (Lupine 14.4V) (issue is now solved in my case, but that was overall a pretty annoying problem). i already wrote this once via mail but never got a response from your side.
This won't be an issue for the alpha, since it has a dedicated battery holder in the frame, but it might be as well an issue in case of a Milan.
 
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Beiträge
1.334
Ort
Beckum
Hi Jan,
good to see you here. You obviously have the time now to reach out to actual customers and to potential customers in the future. (Your Youtube presence points in the sam direction and is very much appreciated).
There seem to be several fields to cover:
  1. Actual troubleshooting - even this can cover a lot of cases, i.e. something went wrong at the factory, communication, dealers and so on until the VM is in the hands of the rider. But also deefects after a few or many km of riding. Exchanging information here can accelerate improvements a lot.
  2. Suggestions for improvements - the list can become quite long. But here is an ideal forum to discuss various alternatives. In many cases the riders have developed solutions of their own and will presnt them. Even failures can help a good decision.
  3. Suggestions for further options - the latest youtube-video shows the new new Lupine lighting option. Here could be a forum to collect ideas and furthermore evaluate, how many riders would be interested.
  4. Spare parts and retrofit - Improving the VM must be your focus and it seems to be. Spare parts will be needed all the time. And a VM has a lot of very specific parts, that can't be easily bought on the internet, especially if the exact specification is unknown. Or imagine the rider of Alpha N° 62 (me) sees an improvement starting with Alpha N°63. If I like it I would ask whether there is an upgrade kit available. (Lupine lighting as an example). This whole process needs to be organized, including the dealers, obvioulsy:
I have probably forgotten to mention several more cases, but this seems to be the bulk.

My personal list:

I tried to install a brake light - phew - what a task. The cables for the attos are alreday there. Riders should be able to order brakling levers including electrical switches. (Safety feature)
During the same procedure I needed to get to the wiring. (In the process I installed the additional resistor to save my attos). I have to admit the cables are very, very well protected. Which in return means it is very very hard to get to those cables. @Kid Karacho described the situation in his "resistor-video". Maybe you can come up with an idea to improve access to the wiring but still keep them safe an well protected.

Ideas for further options (all Alpha 7)
  • Foam cover (got mine from Dronten, fits well)
  • Additional LED brake light
  • Custom bags (fitted using velcro in front of the wheel wells)
  • Different fron axle design, fitting the wheel with just 1 screw and not screwing in the whole axle (I have it an it's much easier)
More will come up with more experience.

Keep it up!
 
Für mich wäre es ein Fortschritt wären die Hinterradnaben mal passen so das die Hülse zwischen den Lagern passt und sich nicht verschiebt.
Noch viel schöner wäre es würde das innere Kugellager an seiner Position bleiben und nicht rausfallen wenn das Hinterrad einmal ausgebaut ist.

Das Problem war schon bei meinem gaanz alten DF das das heute immer noch ein Thema ist hätte ich nicht erwartet.

Mir hat es gerade den Tag versaut und ich muss warten bis das Lager an seiner Position nun verklebt ist, die Hülse bleibt weiter locker, super!
 
Beiträge
438
Ort
85521 Ottobrunn
Ich würde mir wünschen, dass die Elektrik im VM nicht mehr “fliegend” verkabelt wird, sondern über eine vernünftige Platine in der Schaltbox (am linken Radkasten) gelöst wird. Die Anschlüsse für den Akku, die Kabel zum Tiller, und die Kabel zu den Scheinwerfern und Rücklichtern sollten dann über Steckverbindungen oder Klemmbuchsen ausgeführt werden. Vorwiderstände oder ähnliches sollte nach Möglichkeit auf der Platine montiert werden, nicht mehr versteckt irgendwo im Kabel zwischen der Schlangengrube und den Blinker-LEDs.

Die Platine könnte dann zusätzliche Optionen vorsehen, so dass der Händler oder Kunde z.B. Lichthupe, Zusatzblinker, oder Blink-Piepser einfach nachrüsten kann.
 
Beiträge
227
Ort
Neuss
I know the methode of Lean I have read the books and try to implement it. As you already sad the composit is improved a lot in compared with older SL/GT's. We are going forward with quality improvement and quality insurance. Unfortunly I am not magician and this is my first company I run.
Showing up in the forum is already an excellent sign of your intention to improve. I ran an automotive just-in-sequence supplier plant with 170 employees also being the interims quality manager. I know that it is not easy and that sometimes it is hard to find the real cause of a problem.
Not sure what is the correct address for design change requests. But I think Jan can forward them to the people in charge if it's not himself, right? :)
Exactly my thought!(y) The good thing from Jan´s viewpoint is that my Milan has more engineering/design- than production-mistakes. It is not Jan´s fault, when the wiring has wrong dimensions, edges are not designed with proper radii, suspensions are not working safely or a carry-over from GT to SL went wrong.
Jan: Keep up the good work! Don´t take things personal and learn from mistakes. (y)
 
Beiträge
1.349
Ort
80995 München
Für mich wäre es ein Fortschritt wären die Hinterradnaben mal passen so das die Hülse zwischen den Lagern passt und sich nicht verschiebt.
Das würde Lager ohne Spiel voraussetzen, und die wären definitiv kein Vorteil! Für Rollen und Räder sind Lager mit etwas mehr Lagerluft in der Regel viel besser, weil sich kleine Unwuchten nicht sofort auf die Achse übertragen.
Deinen Schmerz mit der fummeligen Montage des Hinterrades kann ich vollkommen nachvollziehen. Aber wenn die Hülse fest geklemmt ist, laufen die Kugeln nicht mehr mittig in der Rille. Die Folge sind sehr hohe Reibwerte, deutlicher spürbare Unwuchten und baldige Ausfälle der Lager. Das möchtest Du sicher nicht.

Die Hülsen sollten Kragen haben, die sie mit minimalem Spiel in der Mitte der Nabe halten. Das würde das Problem ohne Nachteile beheben.
 
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Die Hülsen sollten Kragen haben
wie auch immer, eine Lösung wie bei den Vorderradnaben ( die schien etwas dickere Hülsen zu haben) würde ja reichen da ist die Montage ja einfacher.
Am meisten hat mich das rausfallende Kugellager genervt so etwas sollte heute nicht mehr passieren.
Eine Fase an der Achse könnte beim einfädeln auch hilfreich sein, es gibt sicherlich vernünftige Lösungen.
 
Beiträge
483
Ort
Kreis WAF
Okay, I try to list it in English.

First my VM-newbie-opinion:
The velomobiles itself are great. And standing next to one you can see it's a lot of work to create one.
And that's the reason why it's really pity that the problems are too many aviodable detail-mistakes:
  • function and the
  • finish.

Ordered: Front 70z, delivered 65z (think that Jens ordered correctly, was his suggestion).
Ordered: Without any mirror and drilled hole for it, and reminded the Räderwerk five times or more, delivered with (no idea where it failed, Räderwerk or VW).
Ordered: Complete white painted. The problem is that you can notice little different shade of colour between f.e. the main body and the "Sicherheitsmodul".

When the Milan was delivered I went by train to Räderwerk and drove back with the Milan at home like many others.
The big problem was (is?) that the left drum brake (right too?) often tightened a little bit (not always, thats tricky), so I loose a lot of speed / energy, and was very late at home.
Back home I found out mainly this happens after a "brake". If I lift the Milan and pull the wheel fast after two sec it stands still. Then I found out pulling the brake lever to the front eliminates the problem.
I have to check the problem is still there?

The service of the electical parts of the "Sicherheitsmodul" is difficult because of the very short movable cable loom.
Reported to Helge.

The chain really annoying grinds on the wheel housing if the rear first gear is selected.
I solved this problem by mounting an iron sheet pulling a little bit onto the wheel housing.

I think this is a problem, because it doesn't make sense, and I think here I'm loosing energy:
The trailer chain between the two idler pulleys (from the back to the front, under the seat) is necessarily angeled to the center.
Most time the chain is angeled between the rear idler pulley and the rear wheel, too.
The rear idler pulley itself is NOT angeled to the center, it stands up straight. This is why it is angeled to the chain. The only case the pulleys angel is correct is if rear 1st gear is selected.
Additionally the rear idler pulley doesn't move sideways if necessary.

The aluminium pipe behind the seat was enough sharp-edged to kill my bags.
Solved with file.
(History in MK7.)

The Battle Mountain hood is an eye-catcher. This is why I don't understand why the finish around the side windows is like it is.
It looks like the left and the right windows have ca. 1,5 mm wide and 20 resp. 25 mm long angled gaps at one of its rounded ends. There are some pores in the painting, too.

The "Rangieröse"-element is fitted angularly. If you look from the top you can see the different angles without devices.

After one rainy tour I empty the "Gepäckfach". The luggage was wet. I have to observe this to make sure that it was definitely a production fault and not my mistake.

Not all problems listed, only the relevant ones.
Still thankful to have the possibility to get a Milan.
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Beiträge
33
Ort
Breaza
Jan, i have another suggestion for improvement regarding the cable for the battery connection (especially in the case of a big and heavy Lupine Alpha battery).
Either a) extend the connecting cable in the Velomobile so far that the battery can be stowed away lying down at the bottom of the velomobile without any tension on the cables and plugs
or b) (in case of a shorter cable in the VM) attach a battery holder (either the Lupine "Rolf" or a 3M Duallock Velcro) by default in the Velomobil
or c) (in case of a shorter cable in the VM) add by default a sufficiently long extension cable to allow a)

in my DF XL 311 (RO #662) the cable was too short for a) (and option b) was not possible in the state of delivery). Additionally there was the wrong (female) plug in the VM (Lupine 7.2V) for the (male) battery plug (Lupine 14.4V) (issue is now solved in my case, but that was overall a pretty annoying problem). i already wrote this once via mail but never got a response from your side.
This won't be an issue for the alpha, since it has a dedicated battery holder in the frame, but it might be as well an issue in case of a Milan.
Hi Timon,

We had some problems with email. For that moment I liked it because It was nice quit on email but after some weeks I start to see there must be a problem with email. We fixed that problem (i hope I am not an IT nerd)

We discussed this problem with ICB about this mistake. We have also made sure this is production fixed. Only we need to make still the documentation. We are behind with documentation and alone documentation is nothing if we not build a system to make sure it is implmented otherwise we get Malta practice.

Thanks Timon

Jan
 
Beiträge
33
Ort
Breaza
Hi Jan,
good to see you here. You obviously have the time now to reach out to actual customers and to potential customers in the future. (Your Youtube presence points in the sam direction and is very much appreciated).
There seem to be several fields to cover:
  1. Actual troubleshooting - even this can cover a lot of cases, i.e. something went wrong at the factory, communication, dealers and so on until the VM is in the hands of the rider. But also deefects after a few or many km of riding. Exchanging information here can accelerate improvements a lot.
  2. Suggestions for improvements - the list can become quite long. But here is an ideal forum to discuss various alternatives. In many cases the riders have developed solutions of their own and will presnt them. Even failures can help a good decision.
  3. Suggestions for further options - the latest youtube-video shows the new new Lupine lighting option. Here could be a forum to collect ideas and furthermore evaluate, how many riders would be interested.
  4. Spare parts and retrofit - Improving the VM must be your focus and it seems to be. Spare parts will be needed all the time. And a VM has a lot of very specific parts, that can't be easily bought on the internet, especially if the exact specification is unknown. Or imagine the rider of Alpha N° 62 (me) sees an improvement starting with Alpha N°63. If I like it I would ask whether there is an upgrade kit available. (Lupine lighting as an example). This whole process needs to be organized, including the dealers, obvioulsy:
I have probably forgotten to mention several more cases, but this seems to be the bulk.

My personal list:

I tried to install a brake light - phew - what a task. The cables for the attos are alreday there. Riders should be able to order brakling levers including electrical switches. (Safety feature)
During the same procedure I needed to get to the wiring. (In the process I installed the additional resistor to save my attos). I have to admit the cables are very, very well protected. Which in return means it is very very hard to get to those cables. @Kid Karacho described the situation in his "resistor-video". Maybe you can come up with an idea to improve access to the wiring but still keep them safe an well protected.

Ideas for further options (all Alpha 7)
  • Foam cover (got mine from Dronten, fits well)
  • Additional LED brake light
  • Custom bags (fitted using velcro in front of the wheel wells)
  • Different fron axle design, fitting the wheel with just 1 screw and not screwing in the whole axle (I have it an it's much easier)
More will come up with more experience.

Keep it up!
Hi Dockter?

Finally I start to find a bit more time to see what is happening with the effort we put in to improve and the good news there is room for more improvement.

We follow this step already to Analise the problems but it is not easy but I am now on the position I am not running 60 hours a week trough the workshop anymore but can sit down and work on long term solutions. That's why I appreciate that people take time to inform me on this channel.

You requested these ones
  • Foam cover (got mine from Dronten, fits well)
I need also one for my self I want to have one from composit, I will make something and I hope I piss of Daniel with this in order he comes with a better version. I am not a designer.
  • Additional LED brake light You need more light? Can you send me a picture
  • Custom bags (fitted using velcro in front of the wheel wells) Can you maybe contact radical if they want to design bags. That's not my stronghold to make bags
  • Different fron axle design, fitting the wheel with just 1 screw and not screwing in the whole axle (I have it an it's much easier) Do you have a design? I can produce them in order more people andjoy it

Jan
 
Beiträge
33
Ort
Breaza
Showing up in the forum is already an excellent sign of your intention to improve. I ran an automotive just-in-sequence supplier plant with 170 employees also being the interims quality manager. I know that it is not easy and that sometimes it is hard to find the real cause of a problem.

Exactly my thought!(y) The good thing from Jan´s viewpoint is that my Milan has more engineering/design- than production-mistakes. It is not Jan´s fault, when the wiring has wrong dimensions, edges are not designed with proper radii, suspensions are not working safely or a carry-over from GT to SL went wrong.
Jan: Keep up the good work! Don´t take things personal and learn from mistakes. (y)
Sometimes it is hard not to take it personal but I tri

Jan
 
Beiträge
33
Ort
Breaza
Okay, I try to list it in English.

First my VM-newbie-opinion:
The velomobiles itself are great. And standing next to one you can see it's a lot of work to create one.
And that's the reason why it's really pity that the problems are too many aviodable detail-mistakes:
  • function and the
  • finish.

Ordered: Front 70z, delivered 65z (think that Jens ordered correctly, was his suggestion).
Ordered: Without any mirror and drilled hole for it, and reminded the Räderwerk five times or more, delivered with (no idea where it failed, Räderwerk or VW).
Ordered: Complete white painted. The problem is that you can notice little different shade of colour between f.e. the main body and the "Sicherheitsmodul".

When the Milan was delivered I went by train to Räderwerk and drove back with the Milan at home like many others.
The big problem was (is?) that the left drum brake (right too?) often tightened a little bit (not always, thats tricky), so I loose a lot of speed / energy, and was very late at home.
Back home I found out mainly this happens after a "brake". If I lift the Milan and pull the wheel fast after two sec it stands still. Then I found out pulling the brake lever to the front eliminates the problem.
I have to check the problem is still there?

The service of the electical parts of the "Sicherheitsmodul" is difficult because of the very short movable cable loom.
Reported to Helge.

The chain really annoying grinds on the wheel housing if the rear first gear is selected.
I solved this problem by mounting an iron sheet pulling a little bit onto the wheel housing.

I think this is a problem, because it doesn't make sense, and I think here I'm loosing energy:
The trailer chain between the two idler pulleys (from the back to the front, under the seat) is necessarily angeled to the center.
Most time the chain is angeled between the rear idler pulley and the rear wheel, too.
The rear idler pulley itself is NOT angeled to the center, it stands up straight. This is why it is angeled to the chain. The only case the pulleys angel is correct is if rear 1st gear is selected.
Additionally the rear idler pulley doesn't move sideways if necessary.

The aluminium pipe behind the seat was enough sharp-edged to kill my bags.
Solved with file.
(History in MK7.)

The Battle Mountain hood is an eye-catcher. This is why I don't understand why the finish around the side windows is like it is.
It looks like the left and the right windows have ca. 1,5 mm wide and 20 resp. 25 mm long angled gaps at one of its rounded ends. There are some pores in the painting, too.

The "Rangieröse"-element is fitted angularly. If you look from the top you can see the different angles without devices.

After one rainy tour I empty the "Gepäckfach". The luggage was wet. I have to observe this to make sure that it was definitely a production fault and not my mistake.

Not all problems listed, only the relevant ones.
Still thankful to have the possibility to get a Milan.
That's a lot. When this Milan was deliverd? Was Jens still there at Raderwerk when you took delivery?

Jan
 
Beiträge
483
Ort
Kreis WAF
Hello Jan,

I've met Jens to make a test drive, and later to place the order. A few months later I recognized his change, but long before I received the Milan.
Most of my emails respective the order and the reminders not to forget without mirror are after this point. I think that's a little bit of bad luck because of changes happened.

I received the Milan 27.11.2020. MK5 No 33.
 

Gear7Lover

gewerblich
Beiträge
9.439
Ort
CH-4556 Steinhof
It gets worse if you want to mount stuff that's not on the list at all (Ginkgo wheels, aluminium/Igus rods, Schlumpf, Tank steering that requires different shifters and brake levers.) You end up with a box full of nearly new parts that gets dusty in your garage. We should loop them back to Romania for re-use. On the other hand I understand that this can only be efficiently manufactured if there are not too many options. Maybe all should be reduced to the most economic option. That avoids option difficulties/mistakes entirely. And tuning/pimping is then fully up to the end user or his least mistrusted mechanic.

Don't take this for serious. I was just thinking loud.
 
Beiträge
1.083
Ort
35576 Wetzlar
  • Different fron axle design, fitting the wheel with just 1 screw and not screwing in the whole axle (I have it an it's much easier) Do you have a design? I can produce them in order more people andjoy it
Hi Jan,

I assume that @DoktorHh refer to the mounting of the front wheels like the DF.
I would be also easier for those people who own A7 and DF to use different wheel sets on both VMs ;) , if the A7 has the same front axle design.
 
Beiträge
16
Ort
Markgröningen
Hello Jan,
I'm among those customers, who never even talk to you but buy a different brand.

key reason: total costs of ownership
+ time and especially the effort to maintain a velomobile - the WAW is by far superior in it's maintenance possibilies. (easy access to all parts and more market standard bike parts (eg. if velomobileworld goes out of business or drastically increases aftermarket prices), easy cleaning inside
+ in case of a crash it's most of the time the front and sometimes the rear - only few cases with major damages on the sides. Here again the WAW outperforms all of your velomobiles by far

For this reason, I didn't even consider any of your velomobiles. And I'd make the very same decision again!
(The extra weight of their concept is not a core concern for my daily commute - I should lose some weight myself first)


During the buying process I was and still am continously confronted with the opinion, that velomobiles are not safe. While this might be statistically incorrect, the perceived passager safety of all velomobile brands is too low. (proven by too many, too severe accidents)
The Podbike's second strongest selling reason is safety and with more than 2.700 pre-orders it is extremely successful. Another one is the Begrett velomobile, their Nr. 1 selling reason is cycling safety, coming along with a 4-point belt system (which makes somewhat sense, due to the threat of submarining). So others see the generic safety concern and get positive responses and open markets, which were not available by existing velomobiles.

Neither the Podbike nor Begrett are real market-proven solutions and have multiple shortcomings in my opinion. Anyways I've decided to go for the WAW, despite it's shortcoming on safety.

As safety is very important to me, I'm in the process of working with a safety consultant from USA and Katanga to improve the passanger safety. Beeing an engineer myself I've spend many, many hours in researching passanger safety.

If you would like to join in - we could consider any type of cooperation - like jointly developing some velomobile safety solutions.

And we could possibly could come up with some crowdfunding on this project as well. (for Katanga I'm going to cover in the beginning)

regards,
Simon
 

Gear7Lover

gewerblich
Beiträge
9.439
Ort
CH-4556 Steinhof
coming along with a 4-point belt system
To avoid diving through under the belt and ruining all your internals while doing so, leaving more damage than without, you'd need a 5-point belt as in a kids trailer. And that 5th point hurts :oops: No sure if you can convince any man to put that on.
Or a fall arrest harness that does not look like anyone can cycle in it without getting sore.

For the rest. Is Jan the guy to discuss velomobile concepts? Not my business, but wondering...
 
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