Grenzen des 250 W Pedelec Antriebes beim Velocar

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Und 250w Nennleistung ist genauso egal und wird aktuell von keinem einzigen Hersteller eingehalten. Wenn die Verbreitung von 2000watt Transportern, die per drehendem Gaspedal gesteuert, deutlich ansteigt, wirds da seitens des Staates neue Regelungen geben. So wie bei e Rollern. Die brauchen Versicherung und Kennzeichen bei 20kmh, 15kg und 150watt..
 
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Wirf doch nochmal eine Blick aufs Podbike. Da gibt es einmal die "elektronische Kette" und zum anderen einen separaten Hilfsmotor, der wie beim Pedelec ab 25km/h abgeregelt wird. Damit ist doch die Anforderung der EU-Verordnung formal erfüllt: Pedalantrieb + Hilfsmotor. "Pedalantrieb" sagt ja nichts über die Technik "hinter" den Pedalen aus. Juristisch scheint mir das sauber zu sein, solange die beiden Systeme sauber getrennt sind. Der lausige Wirkungsgrad des "Pedalantriebs" ist aus dieser Perspektive uninteressant. Der Hilfsmotor muss halt den EU-Vorgaben entsprechen.

Ich gehe übrigens davon aus, dass ein kleines Startup gegenüber den Behörden deutlich sorgfältiger vorgehen muss als ein renommierter Autozulieferbetrieb

It is written in the directive 0ne (1) motor.

e-chain is a ridiculous semantic concept, when you pedal you are producing electricity not making the wheel turn...
 
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It is written in the directive 0ne (1) motor.
No. The directive says one motor for additional support to the pedal engine.

Apparently (if not hidden somewhere else) it does not demand on the technical way the "pedal drive" is realized - this appears to be completely neutral to the applied technology; the only demand is that the energy is produced into the pedals (which strictly spoken would exclude a rowing drive or similar devices sometimes used in HPVs for pedelecs.)
 
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Well it wasn't long before I found a problem, page 9 ...

3.3
electrically power assisted cycle
EPAC

cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by
means of this auxiliary electric motor, except in the start-up assistance mode

Now explain again how your "e-chain" works please... We remove the auxiliary motor and you turn your pod bike, or other, pedals and the electricity generated makes the wheels go round by divine intervention? Oh! You also have a "main motor", you are driving a light electric vehicle, nothing to see here then, we are talking about velocipedes...

These e-chain things are light electric vehicles and not EPACs, unless national law says otherwise they can not drive on cycle paths because they are not cycles (bi-, tri-, quadri-, ...). Those who say otherwise need to read EN15194:2017 again or have someone who understands very simple plain English to explain it to them.
 
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Well it wasn't long before I found a problem, page 9 ...

3.3
electrically power assisted cycle
EPAC

cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by
means of this auxiliary electric motor, except in the start-up assistance mode

Now explain again how your "e-chain" works please... We remove the auxiliary motor and you turn your pod bike, or other, pedals and the electricity generated makes the wheels go round by divine intervention? Oh! You also have a "main motor", you are driving a light electric vehicle, nothing to see here then, we are talking about velocipedes...

These e-chain things are light electric vehicles and not EPACs, unless national law says otherwise they can not drive on cycle paths because they are not cycles (bi-, tri-, quadri-, ...). Those who say otherwise need to read EN15194:2017 again or have someone who understands very simple plain English to explain it to them.
And again: An e-chain as used in the Frikar can run without external electric power, powered by the human legs over a pedal driven generator. Therefor it is a bike and it is not relevant whether the human power is transferred via a chain, kardan, conversion with cables, satellite connection over a starlink, voodoo power or whatsoever. I do not know any regulation or normative document that does include a restriction of the way how to drive the wheels with human power. If there is one please name it.

The normative documents can not be explained/used by the majority of the forum users because they charge you +150€ to read the document. And by the way: the EN15194:2017 is not applicable for VMs anyway, or is your VM seat higher than 635mm above ground?
 
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Moin,
the EN15194:2017 is not applicable for VMs anyway, or is your VM seat higher than 635mm above ground?
wir reden hier aber von Velocars, nicht Velomobilen. Bei den vielen Velocars wird gerade die Pedelec-Vorzüge genannt und die gibt es nicht ohne vorher extern geladene Akkus.

Ciao,
Andreas
 
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cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by
means of this auxiliary electric motor, except in the start-up assistance mode
The text You quoted does by no way specify how the trive train is realized. It just requires that the auxiliary support must be separate, which does not exclude a solution consisting of a generator and another motor. That simply means that You need keep the drive train separated from the additional motor; otherwise it cannot be "auxiliary". And please do not mix up questions of technical meaningfullness with these formal conditions.

So, if You have a pedal driven generator driving some motor + a second motor for electric assistance, the latter can safely be considered auxiliary - of course as long as the conditions on power and support speed are maintained.

If, on the other hand, You have a pedal generator and a battery driving only one single motor (which would be lighter and cheaper and would have the same effect), there will be a contradiction to the EU law.

And please keep in mind that EN standards are by themselves not laws but just recommendations, although, of course, any EU law can refer and thus include such a standard into its scope. But that needs to be done explicitly.

And now to the Frikar: it actually has two motors: one driven by the generator, i.e. the drive train motor, and the 2nd driven from the battery.
If the generator can also load the battery, this is something simply not covered by the EU regulation.
 
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I'm sorry but frikar pretended at one point on pages I have read that their vehicle is an EPAC. It isn't. It can't be one.

They need new legislation just as Segway, electric scooters and skateboards did. We have that legislation in France now.
 
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The text You quoted does by no way specify how the trive train is realized. It just requires that the auxiliary support must be separate, which does not exclude a solution consisting of a generator and another motor. That simply means that You need keep the drive train separated from the additional motor; otherwise it cannot be "auxiliary". And please do not mix up questions of technical meaningfullness with these formal conditions.

So, if You have a pedal driven generator driving some motor + a second motor for electric assistance, the latter can safely be considered auxiliary - of course as long as the conditions on power and support speed are maintained.

If, on the other hand, You have a pedal generator and a battery driving only one single motor (which would be lighter and cheaper and would have the same effect), there will be a contradiction to the EU law.

And please keep in mind that EN standards are by themselves not laws but just recommendations, although, of course, any EU law can refer and thus include such a standard into its scope. But that needs to be done explicitly.

And now to the Frikar: it actually has two motors: one driven by the generator, i.e. the drive train motor, and the 2nd driven from the battery.
If the generator can also load the battery, this is something simply not covered by the EU regulation.

I have said before that EN15194 is French law. It is also UK law for the moment. The directive was written into law as is.
 
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EN15194
3.1 cycle
vehicle that has at least two wheels and is propelled solely or mainly by the muscular energy of the
person on that vehicle, in particular by means of pedals

3.3 electrically power assisted cycle
EPAC

cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by
means of this auxiliary electric motor, except in the start-up assistance mode

4.2.16 Failure mode
4.2.16.1 Requirements


It shall be possible to ride the EPAC by pedalling even if the assistance failed.

4.2.16.2 Test method

This requirement shall be checked as described in 4.2.16.2.

a) Remove or disconnect the battery pack.
b) Ride the bicycle up to 10 km/h.

Frikar/Podbike say:

CLASSIFICATION​

Frikar ebike is classified as cycle within Europe (you can use bike lanes). No licence or registration needed.

and
  • Frikar ebike is designed to be an EPAC/Pedelec within regulations as defined for EU; i.e. max assisted speed 25 kph, max continuous assist power 250W and assist cease to function if cyclist stop pedalling

MOTORS​

Two motors, one in each rear wheel, is the only propulsion – no greasy chains.
A compact generator propelled by pedals provide human power input. An electronic transmission complying to pan-European requirements for electric assisted cycles. We use a battery pack specially developed for electronic transmission on cycles in Nordic climate.

****************

1. All experiments with 2 motors and generators are gambling that the legislation in target market countries will be modified so that they are legally considered to be cycles. If the manufacturer does not obtain those modifications to the law then the vehicle will need to be type approved in one of the many light electric vehicle classes. Special clauses had to be written into the French road code for Segway and electric scooters etc. They are all limited to 25 km/h top speed, even downhill, and require a helmet and security vest when used on the road. Please show me where "An electronic transmission complying to pan-European requirements for electric assisted cycles." is formalised? It isn't in EN15194:2017 in any case.

2. Frikar/Podbike (and others) are not being honest when they say, as copied from the web site and cited above, that they are fully within EPAC regulations. They can not be because EN15194 applies to bicycles with electric assistance, and https://www.podbike.com/faqs/frikar-speed/ says that Frikar is a light electric vehicle in all letters, it is powered by a motor over and beyond 25 km/h!!! They also all fail 4.2.16. If you fail a test you can not be an EPAC (hint: the second motor is not auxiliary, it is the main motor...)

3. After reading through it is clear that any trike or vélomobile with electric assistance can only be considered to be "within the spirit of EN15194" if they are limited to 25 km/h assisted speed and 250W nominative power with a 48v nominative battery. That last point is also new in the 2017 version because previously the voltage was limited to 48v maximal voltage. You are more or less an EPAC but not a bicycle within EN15194 so no special marking is required. I would put a sticker on with "cut off speed 25 km/h, maximun continous rated power 0.25 kW" however.

I am not personally hostile to light electric vehicles. I can not accept "fake news" however and companies pretending that their product is something which it is not. Light electric vehicles belong on the road and not the bicycle path.

Long and interesting read which, for me, sounds the death bell for bicycle kit conversions. That is what Bosch and Co, wanted all along. Even Bafang prefers to sell complete systems to bicycle manufacturers these days.
 
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EN15194
3.1 cycle
vehicle that has at least two wheels and is propelled solely or mainly by the muscular energy of the
person on that vehicle, in particular by means of pedals
Correct for the Frikar: has four wheels, is propelled solely or mainly by the muscular energy of the person and by means of pedals (through generator and main motor)
3.3 electrically power assisted cycle
EPAC

cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by
means of this auxiliary electric motor, except in the start-up assistance mode
Correct for Frikar: equipped with pedals and with auxiliary motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by this auxiliary motor
4.2.16 Failure mode
4.2.16.1 Requirements


It shall be possible to ride the EPAC by pedalling even if the assistance failed.
Correct for Frikar: if the auxiliary motor fails you can still ride it with the generator and the main motor
4.2.16.2 Test method

This requirement shall be checked as described in 4.2.16.2.

a) Remove or disconnect the battery pack.
b) Ride the bicycle up to 10 km/h.
With the battery: I don't know if that can work with removing the battery pack. It is likely to work when you disconnect the battery line from the auxiliary motor, this can be regarded as "disconnect"
Ride with 10 km/h and solely muscle power: very likely to work with the Frikar
Frikar/Podbike say:

CLASSIFICATION​

Frikar ebike is classified as cycle within Europe (you can use bike lanes). No licence or registration needed.

and
  • Frikar ebike is designed to be an EPAC/Pedelec within regulations as defined for EU; i.e. max assisted speed 25 kph, max continuous assist power 250W and assist cease to function if cyclist stop pedalling

MOTORS​

Two motors, one in each rear wheel, is the only propulsion – no greasy chains.
A compact generator propelled by pedals provide human power input. An electronic transmission complying to pan-European requirements for electric assisted cycles. We use a battery pack specially developed for electronic transmission on cycles in Nordic climate.

****************

1. All experiments with 2 motors and generators are gambling that the legislation in target market countries will be modified so that they are legally considered to be cycles.
Your personal opinion
If the manufacturer does not obtain those modifications to the law then the vehicle will need to be type approved in one of the many light electric vehicle classes. Special clauses had to be written into the French road code for Segway and electric scooters etc. They are all limited to 25 km/h top speed, even downhill, and require a helmet and security vest when used on the road. Please show me where "An electronic transmission complying to pan-European requirements for electric assisted cycles." is formalised? It isn't in EN15194:2017 in any case.
It is not excluded there, therefor it does comply with it
2. Frikar/Podbike (and others) are not being honest when they say, as copied from the web site and cited above, that they are fully within EPAC regulations. They can not be because EN15194 applies to bicycles with electric assistance, and https://www.podbike.com/faqs/frikar-speed/ says that Frikar is a light electric vehicle in all letters, it is powered by a motor over and beyond 25 km/h!!! They also all fail 4.2.16. If you fail a test you can not be an EPAC (hint: the second motor is not auxiliary, it is the main motor...)
??? the second motor is the main motor?
I am not personally hostile to light electric vehicles. I can not accept "fake news" however and companies pretending that their product is something which it is not. Light electric vehicles belong on the road and not the bicycle path.
That strongly depends on the type and condition of the bicycle path and the corresponding road. On my daily route there are several parts of the route where I would strongly recommend the bicycle path for a velocar, on other parts the road is the better choice. So the current regulation in Germany, where you have to use the bicycle path but you are allowed to use the road instead, when the condition of the bicycle path is not adequate for the velocar, seems to be a good regulation.
Long and interesting read which, for me, sounds the death bell for bicycle kit conversions. That is what Bosch and Co, wanted all along. Even Bafang prefers to sell complete systems to bicycle manufacturers these days.
I can't hear the bell yet ....
 
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With the battery: I don't know if that can work with removing the battery pack. It is likely to work when you disconnect the battery line from the auxiliary motor, this can be regarded as "disconnect"
Ride with 10 km/h and solely muscle power: very likely to work with the Frikar
The frikar will be imported into the EU from a non EU country. Which means that they face a lot more of control as an EU manufacturer. I am pretty sure that they checked out this in detail with the authorities. I am pretty confident from what i read that especially this company will follow the rules thoroughly. Please keep in mind that they are delivering the bike with a lighting system following the demands of the German regulations.

Nevertheless i remain skeptical with the electric drive train as such and some other details - but not regarding the legality.
 
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With the battery: I don't know if that can work with removing the battery pack. It is likely to work when you disconnect the battery line from the auxiliary motor, this can be regarded as "disconnect"
Ride with 10 km/h and solely muscle power: very likely to work with the Frikar
That is one of the things i am interested in with my test ride end of this month…
…and i will report my experience.
But for now i don’t believe that the Fikar…
…is propelled solely or mainly by the muscular energy of the person…
 
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I am pretty sure that they checked out this in detail with the authorities.
Witch authorities check if a bike is an EPAC? - The companies do it themselves.
There is no rule that any of the authorities do that.
European product safety regulations require manufacturers to certify the conformity of their products on their own responsibility as a rule.

Some bodies, such as TÜV SÜD, undertake testing worldwide for pedelecs or even dam...

…but maybe later a court will do for real.
 
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Wo kein Kläger da kein Richter. Weil die Industrie ja ebenfalls ein Interesse hat, derartige Antriebe auf den Markt zu bringen, sehe ich nicht, wer da klagen sollte.
 
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The frikar will be imported into the EU from a non EU country. Which means that they face a lot more of control as an EU manufacturer. I am pretty sure that they checked out this in detail with the authorities. I am pretty confident from what i read that especially this company will follow the rules thoroughly. Please keep in mind that they are delivering the bike with a lighting system following the demands of the German regulations.

Nevertheless i remain skeptical with the electric drive train as such and some other details - but not regarding the legality.

The Frikar is being manufactured in Germany.

Even with your objections I'm still pretty optimistic that they will get this vehicle on the road as a pedelec.
 
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