Neige-Quad

das ist ganz grosses kino.
alleine schon wie er die räder macht, einfach hammer, so währen die bremsscheiben nicht mehr im dreck auch ohne innere abdeckung
und bringt sicher auch was an aerodynamik wenn bremssattel und scheibe nicht mehr im wind stehen.

auch der "look" im gesammten ist nicht ohne auch wenn man das "home made" an der karosse sieht ist es doch recht klever gebaut.

überhaupt die ideeen die da drinnen stecken auf so lösungen währe ich nie gekommen.

danke fürs aufmerksam machen @Kulle
 
Solarfreak schrieb:
I added another photo, everything looks pretty good.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

windwärts schrieb:
This is really great cinema.
Just the way he makes the wheels is simply awesome, so the brake discs are no longer in the dirt, even without an inner cover
And it certainly improves aerodynamics when the brake caliper and disc are no longer in the wind.

The “look” as a whole is also not without its own, even if you see the “home made” on the body, it is built quite cleverly.

I would never have thought of the ideas that are in there for such solutions.

Thanks for your attention @Kulle
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Greetings from Canada.
Thank you for appreciating the slightly different constructs on my home built velocar. In addition to the concave fiber wheels which hide the disc and brake caliper, the build contains other constructs which have also proven to be worthwhile.

Possibly the more significant feature is the mechanical Tilt Control Apparatus which I operate manually. The Apparatus empowers me to maximize vehicle stability from full stop to full speed throughout the range of tilt which has allowed me to build a taller vehicle (height of a compact sedan) with a track of 65 cm
The height-to-width ratio allows me to see and be seen in traffic yet fit easily within bicycle lanes.
Cheers
Velocoupe
IMG-7463.jpg
 
Kulle schrieb:
Neige-Quad auf AtomicZombie DIY Builder's Forum…
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Der Link funktioniert momentan so nicht mehr. Man findet den Beitrag aber unter dieser Adresse:

Tilting Quad Velomobile

Thank you, sir. Yours is a posting with huge amounts of experience & desired information. Do you notice weaker side gusts? Obviously, more severe gusts would be bothersome, even dangerous. If my preliminary 2 wheel body is light, sturdy, & easily enough built, I'll be doing both 2 & 3 wheel...
atomiczombie.com atomiczombie.com
 
Greetings from Canada.
Here is an update. I have switched my quad into a delta with e-Assist.
Why switch to a delta instead of a tadpole configuration? I actually started my project experimenting with the popular tadpole layout, but the mechanical tilt apparatus worked much better after I removed it from the front of the tadpole and relocated it to rear swingarms of what became the quad. So to keep the tilt apparatus unchanged and to keep the seat within the stability triangle, the delta became the better 3-wheel option to comply with the e-Assist regulations.

AZ Delta clip.JPG


The switch-over was easy. The single-sided swingarm shown in the photo above was simply attached to one of the front hubs and fiberglass wheels of the quad
As it turned out, the weight of the motor and battery + the single-sided swingarm for the delta, balances out the weight removed from the quad (dual front swingarms + the extra front wheel with hub and brake attached).
Except for the e-Assist components and a different nose cone, the rest of the velocar (frame, seat, drive-train, tilt apparatus, steering etc.) remains unchanged.
Since I am using the same tilt apparatus and steering arrangement, the delta feels stable on side-slopes and bumps and is just as much fun when tilting in corners.
So far I'm pleased with the weight (51 Kg.) and performance of my e-Assist velocar.
Cheers
Velocoupe.
 
Greetings from Canada.
I have been designing and building this velocar for 16 years, but it is only in the last 4 years that I have learned how to insert photos and videos on forums such as this one. And, it is just this day, that I discovered that my voice describing a video can be translated into any language to make the video meaningful to all members of this forum.
Here is a link to my latest video
To translate my voice into your preferred language, follow this 4 step procedure.
1. Click the subtitles button [ cc ] located on lower right of the video.
2. Click [ settings ] button and select -Subtitles/CC English (auto generated).
3. Click [auto-translate] in the new menu. This gives you a list of languages.
4. Click on your preferred language and my words will immediately be translated into that language.
I hope this works and you find it useful.
Thank you to all members of this forum who have shown interest and have given me a thumbs-up for my "Tilt4orce Velocar" project.
Cheers.
Velocoupe
 
Hello Velocoupe,
Thanks for building and describing this amazing, tilting Quad/Delta.
Is it possible to show the Delta also driving circles in the snow, like the Quad? I think, to holding the Track on slippery surfaces is more difficult for the Delta?
Greetings from Germany and allways a good Drive, Harri
 
Hello Harri.
Thank you for the positive comments and your request to show how the Delta behaves in the snow.
I also anticipate that the Delta will experience some degree of difficulty when front wheel traction is lost. However, I cautiously anticipate that the mechanical tilt apparatus (which is the same on the Quad and Delta) will continue to provide the controlled stability such that, the difference in degree of stability still results in a ride-feel that is acceptable (fingers crossed).
I am also keen to experience the results of a test. Hopefully I can do the test this winter as we experienced a "Green Christmas" and virtually no snow last winter.
Cheers
Velocoupe
 
Greetings from Canada.
To "Harri". I'm still waiting for our first snow and especially frost so I can test the Delta's reaction on a frozen pond when traction is lost in the front wheel
To "Stone" and "wolfson". A good query. I think "wolfson's" comment is correct. Since most of my riding is on the level, I have no issue with hot brakes.
I originally thought that I would install a hub-motor with regen braking to avoid any issues. But that idea didn't get implemented.

My tilting e-Delta continues to receive alterations as I continue trying to make it into a practical and fun vehicle for urban use. Since the DIY site I was posting my progress on has recently retired, I'm thankful that "Lock" started this thread which allows me to share updates on the Tilt4orce.
I will have one more video which explains the latest upgrade. After that I will try to keep my posts consistent with this site. I will focus my posts on sharing my experiences riding the Delta in all kinds of disturbances encountered in city riding such as road irregularities, gusty X-winds, sharp corners etc. , and what sorts of features I have built into the Delta to deal with the challenges of city commuting. Ha! Ha! If riding to the store for milk or beer can be considered "commuting" than I'm still a commuter at the age of 80 years.

I hope to post an update soon.
Cheers
 
Greetings
Here is the video describing the latest update to my project.


For those of you who ride a tilting or a non-tilting velocar controlled by conventional bicycle steering, you may be thinking , "Wow! Good thing that I already have steering. It's simple. I don't have to think about it. Why even bother experimenting with different ways to control steering? And why have two steering systems?" (FTC which is quite rare, plus the unconventional SHOULDER setup)
Well, I do have an answer. Although it may appear so, my design doesn't really have two separate steering systems. It has two steering inputs acting on the same steering axis. It's actually one steering system with two complementary steering sources of torque, each becoming dominant under different operating conditions.
At this point I'm hoping that you might be thinking, "How does it work? or, Why is this a worthwhile thing?"
In the following posts I'll try to explain my reluctance to abandon the method of "controlling tilt to indirectly control steering" as opposed to relying on the more conventional method where steering is primary (controls direction and lean). My reluctance is bolstered by the complementary benefits of my tilting and steering arrangements which result in many desirable attributes for urban commuting including a higher Roll Over Resistance.
By the way, my motivation for exploring new ways to actuate manual steering came from the Video review of the control mechanisms of the Tilt4orce inserted by "Trikes". Thank you.
Cheers
 
One important benefit of steering by active tilt control is the potential to achieve a higher ROR compared to both free-tilting and non-tilting trikes and quads of similar size.
For me, active tilt control is also referred to as Direct Tilt Control. On the tilt4orce, this consists of two coordinated mechanisms: arm-actuated tilt control levers, and a pivoting seat-bottom that allows controlled body weight shifting. Both act on the rear swingarms.
These mechanism are effective because their leverage ultimately derives from the lateral separation of the rear wheels. Used together, they allow me to apply a simultaneous force and counter-force across the vehicle's roll axis. This results in a ride feel that is both stable and deliberate. Importantly, this two part arrangement is mechanically simple, intuitive, robust, and fail-safe, and it operates continuously rather than having to reach for it to engage or disengage it under specific conditions.
DTC provides explicit control over vehicle lean, and through that lean it indirectly governs the front-wheel steering behavior in FTC mode.
When I say my design has two steering inputs, I'm referring to how steering torque can be introduced at the same steer axis from two different sources. One input arises automatically from the combination of vehicle speed, lean angle, and caster effects, providing intuitive directional control during forward motion. The second input is SHOULDER-actuated and provides direct steering control when backing up, when maneuvering at slow speed, or during brief disturbances such as when encountering unavoidable potholes or surface irregularities at any speed. Each input tends to dominate under different conditions, and together they extend the useable control range for providing direction and stability.
Ok. So I didn't actually explain how my tilting delta is able to achieve a higher ROR compared to a free tilting trike as well as a non-tilting quad of equal dimensions. That will be the focus of my next post.
 
Greetings
Here's how I'm able to increase the ROR.
I use the mechanical tilt apparatus to apply what can be described as a lean-lock approach during cornering. Rather than allow the velocar to seek its equilibrium lean angle, I can actively hold or lock-on a chosen lean angle.
Here's what I do. I begin the inward lean preemptively, before any lateral forces are felt. As the cornering forces begin to build, I can actively resist the natural tendency of the velo to return to upright or to tip outward by applying a counter-torque through the tilt apparatus. At this point my body weight and strength (amplified by the mechanical leverage of the tilt system) assist me in maintaining the desired lean.
From a theoretical standpoint, a lean-locked vehicle can achieve a higher ROR than both:
  • a free tilting trike constrained to a similar practical lean limit, and
  • a non tilting quad of equal track width and center of mass height.
By combining a modest amount of controlled lean within the inherent stability provided by the track width, the lean-lock approach offers an additional roll over margin. Rather than relying solely on either lean or track-based stability, it benefits from both. This can improve predictability near the roll over limit which I find to be important in urban riding where surface conditions are not always ideal.
In practice, usable cornering performance is still governed by factors such as rider comfort with lean, suspension compliance, and tire grip.
Lean-lock doesn't eliminate those restraints, but it allows me to take charge of how to approach and manage the lean limit.
In my next post I'll focus on how my FTC arrangement makes the approach to the roll over limit both calm and predictable which increases my confidence and fun while returning home from that beer commute
Cheers
 
Velocoupe schrieb:
At this point I'm hoping that you might be thinking, "How does it work? or, Why is this a worthwhile thing?"
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
To be honest, I myself do not think about any solutions which do not make possible free tilting. No matter 3 or 4 wheels.
Free tilting is pure fun for driving. First of all much more cheaper for construction.
Stefan
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Greetings, I'm home and able to resume posting.
Hi Stefan. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
When I'm riding in FTC mode (which is most of the time), the controlled lean naturally produces the steer angle appropriate for the Velo's lean and speed. In that sense, the cornering forces settle into the same kind of equilibrium that a free tilter seeks on its own. So yes, I completely agree with you that free tilting is pure fun.
Where the Tilt4orce begins to differ is in what becomes additionally available to the rider. With DTC and 2 complimentary steering inputs acting on the same steering axis, I can do things that aren't possible on a purely free tilting setup. For instance, I can deliberately hold or "Lock the Lean" to increase the rollover margin when conditions call for it. Another option is to combine DTC with manual steering when I'm exiting a corner. The DTC + Manual Steering produces what I've called the "Tumbler Toy" effect in one of my videos. The bi-directional freedom of the steering linkage along with the way tilt, caster forces, and manual input interact, make this effect possible. The resulting self-righting force feels strong, smooth, and very predictable. For me, that transition out of a fast corner is the best part of the ride. I'll describe this riding technique in more detail in my next post.

Regarding the cheaper construction of the free tilter.
I agree that free tilters have an advantage in simplicity. I've always thought of the DTC hand levers as analogous to steering levers - just longer. And since both designs require a seat, the most significant structural difference is in the front wheel. As a home builder, I fully understand that hub-centered wheels are difficult to fabricate with precision (centered and true).
That said, professionally produced free tilters such as Mitka/Drymer, and Arcimoto's Mean Lean Machine suggest to me that in some cases the cost - benefit trade off can favour hub-centered wheels even without considering any additional rollover margin from a lean-lock approach. From my perspective, that makes it a least worth discussing whether added complexity can sometimes provide meaningful gains in control and ride feel.

I'm very much interested in hearing other's thoughts on the pros and cons here - especially from riders with experience on different tilting and steering designs. Is there anyone else riding a Free to Caster setup? I'm hoping that by open discussion, we can uncover what works well - especially for practical, efficient, all-weather velocars designed for short to medium commutes.
Cheers.
 
Greetings.
Before I describe my riding technique for exiting a corner, let me first describe how the two steering inputs act on the steer axis of
the front wheel.
The shoulder actuated controls function much like bicycle handle bars in that they are linked directly to the front wheel providing
conventional, deliberate steering input.
In contrast, when the Tilt4orce is operating in FTC mode, the tilt and speed induced caster forces provide the input acting on the front wheel. As the FTC forces alter the steer angle, the entire linkage moves passively back to the shoulder actuators, and importantly, I can feel the steering input from the front wheel at my shoulders.
This bi-directional freedom is important because it allows the two steering inputs to coexist while providing immediate genuine feedback to me.
In the Radical Upgrade video I said, "It seems to happen without thinking". What I should have said is, "The rider's upper body becomes part of the feedback control loop". The result is a sense of reassurance and continuity in how I input tilting and steering controls.

Now, lets get back to tilting and the "Tumbler Toy" effect when exiting a corner. As I'm leaning to the inside of the corner (engaged in lean-lock), and about to exit the corner, I begin to ease up on the tilt control levers, and I can feel the outward force returning me back to upright. It feels a bit like letting go of a gently loaded spring - the velocar wants to stand itself upright - and it does so smoothly and strongly. Raising my inside shoulder at the same time adds a steering input that slightly tightens the radius providing a secondary force that assists the return to upright which makes the exit feel robust yet playfully stable.
What I've come to appreciate is that this "Tumbler Toy" effect seems to be generated by more than simply counter steer, because, by engaging lean-lock, the natural self righting tendency of the Velo is being held back rather than continuously spent. Holding its lean and then guiding its release is something a free tilter can't quite replicate because it is always spending its energy self-correcting and never gets a chance to store the energy in the first place.

I'll repeat the request from my previous post. Are any members willing to share their experience with FTC steering?
Cheers.
 
Well, in recent years I was more in race trikes than in leaning trikes, driven by a childish fascination of speed rather than by the childish joy of tilting. Plans for this year are already to change this again a little and to do both in parallel. I want to get my free tilter out of the storage and to eventually finish some adaptions, which I started years back but never fully implemented. I'm not a constructor myself, but as a driver I enjoy understanding the "true nature" of a given trike and to bring it to shine (by taking things apart, exchanging components, and putting things back together, tinkerer kind of stuff). It is not about which trike is the best or something, each construction has rights on its own, its about curiosity, learning, not about judgement (that Ted Lasso approach).

Actually my first trike was a free tilting trike. And I remember vividly the first impressions, pure joy to "fly" the trike on the street rather than to just "ride" it. Switching to non-tilting trikes was quite an experience as well: at my first corner I was heavily alarmed, something with this straight trike was broken, I burned that money. It took some seconds for my body to realize, oh, that trike does not tilt, of course not, it cannot. Leaning feels quite natural to the body.

In my first couple of months with the tilting trike I learned that it is possible to fall over with a free tilter despite all 3 wheels continously touching the ground. That trike has a tilting break but the force I could introduce via the break lever was not enough to completly lock the tilting angle. This was due to the used components, I guess, and that is something I want to work on this year. By the way, there also was a commercial trike that was removed from sales because of the same reason (see that old LBR stream from years back, well, I have posted the link in some older posting here, but I'm too lazy too find it again, does not matter much), there also was an anouncement that the vendor found a solution for that weak tilt break problem, but I never saw it making into sales, maybe I just missed this. Anyways.

Again some months later I learned accidently, that some kind of tilt break at too low speed is not absolutely required. In a critical tilt situation, just accelerate to get the trike upright again. Here in this forum one user even stated that he has - for that same trike - just removed that tilt break, he was not needing it at all (well I still like them when the trike is at rest). I might miss something, not too familiar with all the technical terms in English language, but this is probably what you call the "Tumbler Toy" effect. I imagined back in the days something with gyrostatics, angular momentum, self-righting tops, etc. But I was not sure, never had calculated that through, the momentum in the tilted wheels feels too low due to their low mass, the low velocity in critical situations, and the axes are probably all wrong. Yeah, reconsidering this now, and despite the fact that I like gyrostats so much, it is probably just a constructional effect, where the acceleration (vector) interrupts the tilt (curve radius) and just uprights the trike. Goodbye, beloved gyrostats, it would have been so nice...

Then, there was once a situation in a hair needle curve with strong constant wind, which turned from tailwind into headwind. And of course sidewing at the center of that curve, which also got the trike in an upright position. But this again is a differnt story, and decoupling steering and tiltig would not help here, it feels like.

When getting used to free tilting trikes, you do not think much. You just tilt by curving your back a little, by shifting your CoM a little. With that trike and its mechanical design the drivers CoM sits on top of a potential energy surface. Leaning into the curve you actually sit few centimeters lower. And there would be no way with my trike, I believe, to get back onto that top position again in a controlled way by just bending your back. The same body movement that initiates tilting don't get you back upright, I think. Sure, you could try fiercely wriggling like a fish on the floor to get back, but that's not a controlled way. But spot-on acceleration in that critical tilt situation and you are again on top of that potential energy surface (in such a critical tilt situation at low speed steering never was a working option to get the trike upright again for me). Years back I did not make this full connection of thoughts, but today, thinking this all over, it makes some sense for the moment. So, thanks for your postings, which makes me think about tilting trikes again.

Your approach is, as I understand it currently, to provide some possibility to the driver to intercept the tilting. In a way similar to actively defining the tilting angle, by some lever or so, but also completely different. With your trike this interception is indirectly because it aims at steering first, tilting follows indirectly. Handlebars first as usuals, then the shoulder thingies. Is there any strong feedback to the shoulder, when the trike tilts in an uncotrolled way by some cause outside your control? Would the actuators give your shoulder a hit? When I fell over with my trike back then (with all 3 wheels on the ground) I got a muscle strain just because my surprised body wanted to compensate something that it could not. The actuators act as kind of an adjustable envelope to steering / tilting rather than a break, I think.
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Oben Neue Beiträge
Du musst dich einloggen oder registrieren, um hier zu antworten.
Zurück
Oben Unten