Milan GT & tdt: Our Journey - from velomobil.net to NL!

tdt

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Inspired by Axel-H his velomobile topic, I decided to open one of my own. I like long stories about velomobiles, and - spoiler alert - the story with my Milan is probably going to be a bit of journey :D I'm going to write this topic in English, because that's my mother tongue and I want to make sure the details are accurate. If you have any questions, my German is fair so feel free to ask! Otherwise, I learned here that deepl.com does quite a good job at translating.

Let's set the expectations first: I didn't actually cycle from Ottersberg to the Netherlands. I was thinking about it, but @henningt kindly advised against it, because of COVID mainly (and I'm thankful - I know now that that would have been a seriously heavy trip).

A Milan? What? How? Why?
Rewind to October 2020: I was not really happy with my QuattroVelo since I was starting to get difficulty putting my child in, and simply because that bike kept breaking. I'm heavy (~100 kg) and have a LOT of explosive power and torque, enough to break a chain/derailleur/spider. Most of you have probably seen my sales-topic about the QV and the rest of my history: From Quest to DF to QuattroVelo.
Somehow I stumbled upon Henning in a topic about the Milan; I had a test ride in one at Intercity Bike, and in that topic I wrote that in my opinion it felt quite slow accelerating. Henning responded (of course ;)) and after a bit of back and forth in the topic, we starting exchanging DM's with subject "Steifigkeit der Milan". Of course he also invited me to come test drive, but I declined; Ottersberg is too far away, don't think the Milan is my cup of tea, and actually I already had my mind set on going back to a DF.

I actually ordered a DF (in the Netherlands), and this would be the first bike I actually order (in stead of buying one that's on stock), so I had some very specific wishes: a special colour, Di2 rear derailleur, a stronger chain, a 12V light system and preferably an oil/gas damper in stead of the standard rear shock. I met some resistance there; naturally, ICB prefers to sell and support a bike built as standard, they advised against all my mods (even though I mentioned I wouldn't have any issue paying for parts and labour in NL). Understandable, but I felt that when spending close to €10K on a bike which I would have to wait for, that bike should be exactly the way I want it to.
Then, the QV sold (here), but COVID also started to gain traction again, and I saw the order list of ICB go slower than expected.

Understand: My velomobile is my "company car". I try to ride to all customers and also use it on private trips. I really need my bike. Some advised me not to sell the QV before I got the DF, but both my accountant and my wife (not the same person) weren't too keen on having a huge stock in velomobiles around (I also have a damaged QV here - that's for another story), and I don't want trouble with my account nor my wife :ROFLMAO:
So when I saw the order list slow down, I called to find out when my DF would be delivered and they said "we don't know, we cannot promise you anything". Very honest, but I wasn't happy at all with that truth.

Around that time, suddenly two Milans popped up for sale at @henningt ; One GT, in stock, and in the colour scheme which was my second choice for the DF; metallic red and white. I decided to carefully ask him about it, because... well, it's a velomobile, once it has space the Milan is seriously fast (I knew that, was just concerned with acceleration), and one of my current customers is on 80 km distance so a fast bike is an asset. After some positive chats with Henning, I quickly rushed over to my friend in Gouda who has a Milan GT Mk6, and did a quick test run, which surprised me; it felt a lot better than I remembered.

Long story short: I ended up cancelling my DF-order and got myself a Milan GT :cool:

Picking up the Milan...
Well, that was interesting. I'm used to most professional recumbent bicycle people being extremely friendly, but also a bit (I'm just going to say it) unprofessional.
Two random examples:
1) A friend went to pick up his brand new velomobile, I decided to join him by cycling over so we could cycle back together. We had to wait for hours and hours because some last things had to be assembled etc.
2) A friend ordered an accessory for his bike and paid in full in the beginning of 2020. He is still waiting, and has to chase to get updates on the delivery date.
This fits with the hobby, the only problem is that for me, this bike is not only fun, but also necessary transport. Like a car: If I order, I want to know when I get it, and when I get it, it needs to run without issues. If it doesn't, fix it quick and make sure it doesn't happen again, because I need it.

@henningt is very different, if you ask me. One thing that actually sparked my interest in the Milan, is that he strongly advised me to have the Milan strengthened because of my high weight; this really gave me the feeling he doesn't want me to come back to Ottersberg, unless it's for routine maintenance and/or fun.
This was a correct first impression: From start to end, Henning has been very professional and helpful. I never had the feeling he tried to "oversell" me, but he was very clear on what to select on what not, and also why. A good example is that I got the advice to not blast off at full speed right away, but get used to the bike a bit first. Good point - I am indeed someone who likes to just go flat out right away, haha. Henning is also quite a perfectionist; I'm not an easy fit in the Milan and he calmly kept changing the setup of the bike until I was happy with it.
Apart from that I had good fun when I went to pick up the bike: So if you ask me, velomobil.net = Highly recommended!

Shin splints?
Well, that was interesting too :) I tried a few short trips in the neighbourhood with some friends. A Quest is still a good bike, but it's clearly quite a bit slower than a Milan, so when I went for a trip with a friend who has less sprinting power than I do and at the moment a similar continuous output, I was merely cruising along, going for a short blast every now and then and then waiting on the next intersection. It was a nice trip, I didn't have any problems, all went well.
A day or two later, I had to go to my office (11 km) and I had about 45 minutes to get back, so needless to say I was pushing it a bit. Somehow, a burning sensation started to surface in my left shin, and after that my ankle also joined. Crap... I didn't have time for that, so I pushed on. For a bit, because especially on the way back it really started to feel as if my leg was on fire. I just couldn't push anymore so I limped home on my right leg (which was fine!).
Gave it a few days of rest and tried again... again: Cruising at ~150W, no problems. Pushing ~250W: Fire after 3 minutes. Crap.
So I started reading about this pain and asking friends, and immediately stumbled into "Shin Splints":
wiki or something schrieb:
inflammation of the muscles, tendons, and bone tissue around your tibia. Pain typically occurs along the inner border of the tibia, where muscles attach to the bone. Shin splint pain most often occurs on the inside edge of your tibia (shinbone).
Recovery time if that's the issue: 6-12 months. Crap!

The position in the Milan is very different from the QuattroVelo, a lot flatter and the pedals are higher in the bike too (or I'm seated lower). I never had this issue before, so I was hoping I could fix it by changing the configuration. I rushed to a local bikefitter (databikefit.nl) and he made an accurate measurement of my legs; position of feet and knees, what my body does if I bend my knees etcetera. Then he reconfigured the cleats on my shoes and I can recommend this to any cyclist too: Not only has the pain gone away, somehow it feels as if I was "aiming" my pedal strokes much more before the modification. It's much easier to deliver power (so I'm wondering if I'll see a new increase, haha).

How I like the Milan?
Well, I like it a lot, but, as I said at the top; it's become a journey.
First things first: This is really the best handling velomobile I've ever been in. That's a statement from someone who's owned both a DF and a QuattroVelo, isn't it? Yes, but it's true. The Milan doesn't have the agressive feeling the DF does (which is fun!), it really feels calm and controllable, even in a heavy sidewind. Comparing the DF to the Milan is a bit like comparing BMW M2 Competition to a 650i GranCoupe: It's a true GT. The QV feels more stable and corners a lot faster if the road surface is perfect; however it surprised me a couple of times by suddenly throwing it's tail out. After a while I learned how to control this in faster corners, but it doesn't feel as safe as I'd expect from a four wheeler. "Simply corner slower" you say? Yes, possible, but that would also mean losing a lot of valuable momentum, and because we have lots of cycling paths here in NL, we also have lots of short corners.
Concerning fast corners; The Milan is very capable. I've had it on two wheels twice now;
- Last week, when I kind of forgot I wasn't in the QV, so I was riding about 10 km/h faster than I thought;I slammed into a corner at 50 km/h expecting the tail to slide out, but since I was in the Milan the inside front wheel decided the sky was the limit :ROFLMAO: No problem, I had more than enough space to widen my line and the wheel came back down.
- Today, I was going into a long corner knowing I was more or less on the limit (again, more enough space to correct/brake), and all was fine until I hit a tree root. The inside wheel started coming up slowly, but it went slow enough so I only stopped peddling for a second and it came back down nicely.

The brakes, also an integral part of handling, are also top notch in the Milan. I have the 90mm setup, and again, it's responsive, but less agressive than the 90mm setup in the DF: That was extremely responsive, but also locked up easily resulting in flat patches on my tyres and suboptimal stops (the Milan runs on the same front tyres by the way; Continental Contact Speed in 28-406). The QuattroVelo álso had 90mm brakes, the exact same brakes as the two other bikes, but I had to squeeze the handle like hell to do an emergency stop. Probably due to the way the brake cables were mounted, but to me it didn't really feel comfortable.

Speed... you were probably waiting for this subject :LOL: The acceleration actually ís better than I remembered from my test ride. It's not slow, but off the line I'm not near as quick in it as I was in my DF. At this point I'm not so sure why; it's the same weight as the DF, but I'm guessing the DF had a more optimal chainline so more of my power was reaching the rear wheel. This caused the DF to be a wonderful bike for long distances, because it was so easy to get back up to speed.
Again: The seating position is different! I'm much more flat in the Milan, which might influence this. And about that position: After my medium hard ride today, I'm literally butthurt :ROFLMAO: the muscles in my bum really need to get used to that different position.
In that respect, the results are quite interesting:

1611527266570.png

Only one section of today, but I see this throughout the whole ride. I'm just a bit slower than I was on March 20th last year with the DF (with "Rennhaube" - I currently also have the normal "Haube" on the Milan). I already had some km under my belt in the DF (but it was well setup and in a good shape), I was in a better shape than I am now, the DF had the same tyres at the front but was running on a tubeless G-One at the rear, I had a 3 Bft tailwind, and last but not least it was 10 degrees Celsius that day instead of 4 Celsius today.

What I currently see in Strava is about 50% PR and 50% second or third best, while I had some seriously fast rides in the DF. I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that concerning aerodynamics, the Milan GT is quite a bit superior to a DF XL in the same state. This is probably partially compensated by the fact that the drivetrain of the DF seems more efficient, and in hilly area the DF is probably quite a bit quicker since it's wonderful to climb in, but on the flats, I haven't had a bike this quick before.
Of course, a DF can be fitted with "Hosen" and according to Daniel that makes a big difference, but everyone I talk to advises against it for every day use, and my bike is for every day use. I also haven't included the Alpha 7, Milan SL and Snoek into this equation - I barely fit in the Alpha and the Milan SL and Snoek might be suitable as a coffin for me, but that's about it.

About that fit: @Jens Buckbesch , I hope you're reading :cool: The Milan GT is advertised as suitable for 1.80-2.00m. I used to be 1.94m (maybe I've lost 1-2cm by now), and I do fit in, but only without the Ventisit! I use a superthin fitness mat to avoid touching a cold carbon seat and have circles all over my back.
I'm currently putting my power into 150mm cranks and I'm only júst clearing the edge of the bike at the front (not the edge of the cover! the part of the bike that the cover is fitted to). In my opinion, someone that's actually 2.00m and has an average leg length will not be very happy in a Milan GT, especially not if this person doesn't have loads of torque like I do; 140mm cranks will be necessary and it will still be cramped.
I've heard about a recent modification to the Mk7, which makes it possible to move the seat back even further, but in my opinion that's not a solution; the way the seat is now, my head is rested perfectly. Two centimeters further backwards and I'll be visiting the fysiotherapist weekly again.
More upright? Not an option either - my head is millimeters from the racecap (okay, my helmet size is 62cm so I dó have a large head).
In my opinion, the only solution for tall people would be to move the knee bubbles forward a few centimeters. I'm not sure what that'd do to the aerodynamics, but I'm quite sure, if the Mk8 has that modification, I'm going back to @henningt to get one ;)

The rest of the design... well, as much as I like it, I have the impression the finish is not on par with the DF and the QuattroVelo. It's a bit like comparing a BMW interior to an Audi: It's okay, but I've seen better. For example, the edge of the hood has a rough edge, the chain is visible for a part behind the seat (so I cannot put stuff there - I already ordered a 3D printed cover for this, and I believe the MK7 is updated there too but not sure). I was actually suprrised about this because this is an RO-Milan, so built in the same factory where the DF and QV are also from.
Again, about that DF: I really prefer the DF-seat over what's in the Milan. Might be trying to create a better seat in the future.

Let's end positive: Those aerodynamics. The QV had open sides on the long hood, which gave me a cold neck sometimes, but the corners of the visor fogged up every now and then. On the DF "Haube", I was constantly cleaning the side windows with a tissue because it kept fogging up (at any speed/humidity). In the Milan, even with the visor closed, somehow the side windows clear right up as soon as I pass 35 km/h. Somehow, I have the feeling I also have more air under the Milan hood (with visor closed) than in the DF under similar weather circumstances (yes, I looked it up).
And then there's the design... when I first saw it, I didn't like it, but with this color scheme... The only position I don't like it is straight from the rear.

Summary
Well... I'm happy! And I'll be working on the bike + training to get faster ;)

Other things I'll be working on:
- Dashcams and an alarm system - I park everywhere and want to have proof if I ever have an accident.
- A HALO-like system for the summer; I really appreciate the fact that my head is more or less protected when riding fast, but a helmet doesn't fit.
- Tyre setup. The Continentals are reliable, but I think there's more speed and grip to find here.
- Pictures. But I want to put my company logo on it first, of course.
- A LOUDER HORN. MOVE OVER, SLOW PEOPLE! :ROFLMAO: *

* PARENTAL ADVISORY - EXPLICIT CONTENT
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
I first thought about having a closer look at this very GT too, but refrained from it because I first want to see if a velomobile would even make sense in the future with COVID restrictions apparently becoming the norm and maybe staying forever. And I am skeptic about the low ground clearance and how well that plays with German bike lanes, and how hard it would be to fix a flat tire with all wheels covered.

With your use cases, that Milan fits you much better than it would fit me, if you use it for work, and with the Dutch cycle infrastructure.

A HALO-like system for the summer; I really appreciate the fact that my head is more or less protected when riding fast, but a helmet doesn't fit.

In Summer you could ride without the hood and then you could use a round helmet, like skaters use.


I wonder why there are no configurable horns out there, we have the technology and there are a lot of people with custom bikes out there...
 
And I am skeptic about the low ground clearance and how well that plays with German bike lanes, and how hard it would be to fix a flat tire with all wheels covered.

With your use cases, that Milan fits you much better than it would fit me, if you use it for work, and with the Dutch cycle infrastructure.
If you consider to use bike lanes, you should‘t consider a Milan and vice versa.

Also the fact that there is more proper bicycle infrastructure in NL does not mean it is a better place for riding velomobiles. On the contrary if you ask many dutch velomobile riders. You rather need to use roads and skip the bicycle infrastructure with the velomobile, as the latter is not built nor suited for velomobiles.

Thanks @tdt for the very detailed experience report!
 
If you consider to use bike lanes, you should‘t consider a Milan and vice versa.

Therefore I am not considering a Milan any more. I suppose a QV wouldn't be exactly what I want either, despite its large luggage capacity. I am looking into velocars like the SR3 and the Podbike, and on the velomobile side my focus is heading towards the ones with a short wheelbase and at least open front wheels, especially the Alleweder 6 and the Mango Tour, but I want to have a look at the DFXL as well as that's the nearest I have here and I was told it could be made a bit higher.

If travelling and staying overnight is allowed this summer, I plan to visit Drymer/Sinner for a Mango test ride and judge the bike infrastructure for myself, and I want to visit @henningt for a DFXL test ride and maybe @Kid Karacho for the Alpha 7 - I also want to see beyond my nose.

[/OT]

@tdt, thanks for the experience report from me, either.
 
Congratulations @tdt - and thanks for spending the time on the detailed report. I was interested to hear how much work it took to fit into the Milan GT - I'm a similar height, so it's of academic interest... My WAW with the long nose was relatively easy to fit into - move the bottom bracket forwards, discover that my feet either hit the top (with mid-sole cleats) or stick out the bottom (with normal cleat position), then change the cranks from 155 to 130mm. Now all is good (apart from my lack of fitness, and struggles in finding the perfect tires!)

I wish you many happy miles with the Milan - and look forward to seeing pictures of the velo and the mods that will inevitably be added.

What gearing do you have on it at the moment?

Cheers,
Phil
 
I first thought about having a closer look at this very GT too, but refrained from it because I first want to see if a velomobile would even make sense in the future with COVID restrictions apparently becoming the norm and maybe staying forever. And I am skeptic about the low ground clearance and how well that plays with German bike lanes, and how hard it would be to fix a flat tire with all wheels covered.
Why would the decision to get a Milan be influenced by COVID restrictions? Apart from the fact that I don't go to customers 3-4 days a week at the moment, it didn't really make a difference for me.

With your use cases, that Milan fits you much better than it would fit me, if you use it for work, and with the Dutch cycle infrastructure.
I think the German infrastructure is actually better for a Milan than the Dutch. With the DF I also had this problem: The top speed can be so high, I often need to slow down to keep things safe. The Milan has one large advantage here: In lots of situations it is allowed on the road (even if a cycling path exists).

Cycling paths here really limit average speed, and car drivers see me a lot better when I'm "one of them" on the road.

In Summer you could ride without the hood and then you could use a round helmet, like skaters use.
That would protect my brain but not my face. Chances I'll hit hard enough to need a helmet over the carbon cover are quite limited, chances of rolling and scraping my face on the asphalt is a lot larger. And then there's the situation where you slide upside down and hit a sidewalk: Even (or especially) wearing a helmet, that could potentially break my neck. A hood has proven to be a good solution for this before, so a HALO should have the same result.

I wonder why there are no configurable horns out there, we have the technology and there are a lot of people with custom bikes out there...
They exist but they're not louder than the standard, but are more expensive and heavy. I'm looking to install a Stebel Nautilus, although it is a bit... loud :LOL:

If you consider to use bike lanes, you should‘t consider a Milan and vice versa.
I wouldn't put it like that, but yes, there's some truth to your statement :)

Also the fact that there is more proper bicycle infrastructure in NL does not mean it is a better place for riding velomobiles. On the contrary if you ask many dutch velomobile riders. You rather need to use roads and skip the bicycle infrastructure with the velomobile, as the latter is not built nor suited for velomobiles.
It's easily possible to ride on them, but I don't see a lot of pure cycling paths where I can safely travel >30 km/h.

Therefore I am not considering a Milan any more. I suppose a QV wouldn't be exactly what I want either, despite its large luggage capacity. I am looking into velocars like the SR3 and the Podbike, and on the velomobile side my focus is heading towards the ones with a short wheelbase and at least open front wheels, especially the Alleweder 6 and the Mango Tour, but I want to have a look at the DFXL as well as that's the nearest I have here and I was told it could be made a bit higher.
Why do you want the DF to be higher? In terms of visibility, the DF doesn't have any advantages over the Milan (and an extra 2cm won't help you there). Furthermore, the ground clearance of the Milan GT is better than that of the DF. I can ride speed bumps with the Milan I would scratch the DF on while going over at 3 km/h and as diagonal as possible.
Also, making the DF higher will make it more tippy too, so you will trade cornering speed (= potential safety) for ground clearance. Bad trade-off, in my opinion.

A new DF ís capable of running wider tyres (40-406), and when running on those the turning radius is better than that of a Milan; also, it's possible to grab the front wheel to roll backwards, so it could be a bit more practical in cities (if you don't mind dirty hands, haha).

If travelling and staying overnight is allowed this summer, I plan to visit Drymer/Sinner for a Mango test ride and judge the bike infrastructure for myself, and I want to visit @henningt for a DFXL test ride and maybe @Kid Karacho for the Alpha 7 - I also want to see beyond my nose.
While you're at @henningt, have a go in the Milan too! Try every bike, you never know how it might surprise you :)

Congratulations @tdt - and thanks for spending the time on the detailed report. I was interested to hear how much work it took to fit into the Milan GT - I'm a similar height, so it's of academic interest... My WAW with the long nose was relatively easy to fit into - move the bottom bracket forwards, discover that my feet either hit the top (with mid-sole cleats) or stick out the bottom (with normal cleat position), then change the cranks from 155 to 130mm. Now all is good (apart from my lack of fitness, and struggles in finding the perfect tires!)
Sounds like the Milan is actually more spacious? I haven't hit the top of the bike yet, and even though I have shoesize 50 (sometimes 51 in cycling shoes), I rarely ever hit the bottom. I'm currently running 150mm cranks, switching to 130mm would make it easy.. but 150mm is comfortable.

Concerning my seating position; I have had some back/neck issues in the past, and in my perfect world I bike 400+ every week, so I want the position to be perfect. After what I've learnt during this part of my Milan-journey, I'd always stay away from mid-sole cleats. Adjust cleats to your body, that will give you optimal power output and keep you healthy at the same time.

I wish you many happy miles with the Milan - and look forward to seeing pictures of the velo and the mods that will inevitably be added.
Thanks a lot!

What gearing do you have on it at the moment?
I'm running a 65 at the front, dual with a 34 I think? Haven't really used the 34 yet. Might switch it for something a little bit larger anyway. Or I might go back to a 56/61 if I don't get a lot faster - my legs have no problems with lots of revolutions and currently I'm not using the full cassette.
About that cassette: 11/32.
 
Why would the decision to get a Milan be influenced by COVID restrictions?

Since discussions about COVID are not allowed outside the special COVID thread I won't go too much into the details here, but I consider a velomobile pretty much a winter and bad weather vehicle as I enjoy the completely open riding with my Scorpion. I see many hotels going out of business as a consequence to the restrictions, and not many returning because of the risks of opening a hotel and getting shut down shortly after. Since I am neither into camping nor bikepacking and I want electric assist so I need a place to charge my batteries, that will limit travelling by bike in the future.
This got me thinking if I should pay a five-digit amount of money for a vehicle that is, most of the time, standing in the garage.

But since I have started buying my groceries using the Scorpion with a trailer, I just adjusted my use case to be a car replacement for the occasional tour on a Saturday and thus the velomobile is back in business for me - only one that's more suited for being especially that, hence I am now also considering Alleweder and Mango.

Currently I am waiting how society and the political situation really develops, want to do some test rides over Summer and then decide if I rather move to a bigger flat first (if "stay at home" is the thing to do) or if a velomobile does make sense.

I think the German infrastructure is actually better for a Milan than the Dutch.

When mainly riding on roads, that is true, as you stated for yourself, we don't strictly have to use cycle paths, even if they are mandatory as per a blue sign, as this doesn't apply if the cycle path is not really usable for the vehicle currently in use. I have often heard you get far more respect from car drivers when in a velomobile than on a trike or even a regular upright bike. But I first need to experience this to fully believe it. And I also think about the people in the cars I might p*ss off chugging along with 20 to 30 km/h - I don't think I'll be trained enough in the beginning to go really fast.

I can ride speed bumps with the Milan I would scratch the DF on while going over at 3 km/h and as diagonal as possible.

Really? Okay, then this point is awarded to the Milan.

While you're at @henningt, have a go in the Milan too! Try every bike, you never know how it might surprise you :)

I might. But still, the encased wheels are a bit off-putting, as I think fixing a flat tire is harder than when the wheel is open. But I think Henning could show me how to do it - and if the back wheel is flat, I have to do it anyway - the only velomobile with all three wheels open is the Alleweder 6 after all.

That would protect my brain but not my face. Chances I'll hit hard enough to need a helmet over the carbon cover are quite limited, chances of rolling and scraping my face on the asphalt is a lot larger. And then there's the situation where you slide upside down and hit a sidewalk: Even (or especially) wearing a helmet, that could potentially break my neck.

What experience do you have :oops:

I'd suggest you the TSG Pass or the RuRoC RG1-DX but these ones are very warm so not suitable for Summer. I use the RG1-DX on the trike when it's colder than 10°C. There's also the Gath RV which is a surfing helmet and features a retractable visor you might have a look into. But I don't know how sweaty that one might be in Summer.
 
. I have often heard you get far more respect from car drivers when in a velomobile than on a trike or even a regular upright bike. But I first need to experience this to fully believe it. And I also think about the people in the cars I might p*ss off chugging along with 20 to 30 km/h - I don't think I'll be trained enough in the beginning to go really fast.
You must place yourself in the middle of the lane to be treated appropriately, only then car drivers see that they need to change lanes completely to overtake, instead of trying to stay in the lane and inevitably passing much to close.

It does not matter whether you go 20, 30, or 50 km/h, you will be seen as the same obstacle that must be overtaken by car drivers, anyway.
The slower you are, the more easy and safe can cars overtake.
Think of the situation as in effect the same as if you would be a farmer driving a slow tractor. No honking will make you disappear, so the honks must be friendly greetings to be answered with a friendly honk from your side.
 
I already answer honking with honking :) I have a "clown car" horn on my trike and the velomobile will have one too. This belongs there.
 
Since discussions about COVID are not allowed outside the special COVID thread I won't go too much into the details here, but I consider a velomobile pretty much a winter and bad weather vehicle as I enjoy the completely open riding with my Scorpion. I see many hotels going out of business as a consequence to the restrictions, and not many returning because of the risks of opening a hotel and getting shut down shortly after. Since I am neither into camping nor bikepacking and I want electric assist so I need a place to charge my batteries, that will limit travelling by bike in the future.
This got me thinking if I should pay a five-digit amount of money for a vehicle that is, most of the time, standing in the garage.
Good point. I prefer using the velomobile as a replacement for the car, because it's fast. So even in the summer I ride this, unless I'm with my son and he is on his own bicycle (then I usually ride on the Challenge Focus) or when I want to train my upper body (Thys rowing bike).

But since I have started buying my groceries using the Scorpion with a trailer, I just adjusted my use case to be a car replacement for the occasional tour on a Saturday and thus the velomobile is back in business for me - only one that's more suited for being especially that, hence I am now also considering Alleweder and Mango.
Maybe starting with an older and cheaper Quest/Strada/Mango is a good idea? It's quicker than an Alleweder and prices are a lot more friendly since there's about 20 years of history available on the market.

Currently I am waiting how society and the political situation really develops, want to do some test rides over Summer and then decide if I rather move to a bigger flat first (if "stay at home" is the thing to do) or if a velomobile does make sense.
Some space is comfortable for a velomobile. They are not as accepted to be parked on the road as a car yet. I even got into a discussion once with a parking attendant because I drove into a parking garage and parked my velomobile on a spot under the camera (I had a ticket, of course!). Went well in the end, because he accepted my motivation. Now they know me and I have permission to park my bike there any time - they even have a separate spot for me right at their office (at the normal rate of €5 an hour... but if I need to go into the city center in the evening, I'm more than happy to pay for a safe storage).

When mainly riding on roads, that is true, as you stated for yourself, we don't strictly have to use cycle paths, even if they are mandatory as per a blue sign, as this doesn't apply if the cycle path is not really usable for the vehicle currently in use. I have often heard you get far more respect from car drivers when in a velomobile than on a trike or even a regular upright bike. But I first need to experience this to fully believe it. And I also think about the people in the cars I might p*ss off chugging along with 20 to 30 km/h - I don't think I'll be trained enough in the beginning to go really fast.
That is true. Here, the rule is 3 or more wheels, 75cm or wider and you're allowed on the road as long as there's no sign that explicitly states bicycles are not allowed. Even if that sign is there, in a few cases I just continue on the road for my own safety.

The only disadvantage is that not all police is aware of this rule (video below was in the QV) :ROFLMAO:


On 50 and 60 km/h roads, I barely get any agression apart from the occasional honking, not even when I'm too tired and cannot accelerate hard anymore. Yesterday was actually funny - I was on a small road with a 60 km/h speed limit, cruising along at ~42 km/h after my training. A big van came up behind me and it's impossible for him to pass on that road (normally, I would be quicker anyway because cars have to stop on special passing sections). I immediately started to up my speed to about 50 when I came to the one longer passing section, and swerved from the middle to the right with my blinker on to show that he could go. He flashed his headlights and increased his distance, so I went back to the middle and continued accelerating to about 55. At the end of the road I went onto the bike path that starts there - van driver honked and put his thumb out of the window. So he was just trying to see how fast I could go, haha :)

One negative experience I had was in the middle of the night, on a similar road:

I was doing over 40 km/h in a 30-zone. This guy didn't warn, passed at high speed and so close, I was angry as hell. I was happy he continued on at that high speed because I was ready to rip his car door off if I would have met him further down the road.

The honking experience (and car drivers generally ignoring the rules):


However, this is the Vogelweg, between Almere and Dronten. Most of that road has an 80 km/h maximum speed normally, this part is 60 (and normally 30). It's long and straight, most car drivers speed there too, I've seen people drive over 120 km/h on this road. Also, this road normally has a perfect cycling path (Theo from Velomobiel.nl rides there almost daily and manages average speeds of close to 50 km/h on the cycling path - that's what I call a good cycling path!). So I do understand their frustration of that day with driving only 45 km/h (but only 30 was allowed, for safety of the workers!). In that respect, I think Germans are better drivers than the Dutch; I usually see Germans slow right down if there's a modified speed limit because of work.

Really? Okay, then this point is awarded to the Milan.
Yup. I think the actual ground clearance is similar, but the nose of the Milan points upward a bit more and the foot bumps seem to be a bit more backward compared to the DF.

I might. But still, the encased wheels are a bit off-putting, as I think fixing a flat tire is harder than when the wheel is open. But I think Henning could show me how to do it - and if the back wheel is flat, I have to do it anyway - the only velomobile with all three wheels open is the Alleweder 6 after all.
It's quite simple:
- put bike on it's side (on a blanket), or lift one wheel with a block;
- squeeze the tyre to the middle, so it's easier to slide it off;
- take of tube and tyre at once (just release it and then pull the whole set out of the wheel well at once);
- remove tube, put a bit of air in new/repaired tube and put it back in outer tyre;
- put the set in the wheel well, slide up, but start at the bottom and turn the wheel until one side of the outer tyre is on;
- pull the second side in (while rotating the wheel again);
- if you didn't pump the tube up too much, you can wiggle the outer tyre to pull the valve straight;
- add air. Lots of it ;-)

Depends a bit on the tyre how difficult it is. My best experience was a Vredestein GoCycle 50-406 on a Quest, second worst experience was the 40-584 Schwalbe G-One on a tubeless ready rim (DT-Swiss XR331) on the DF, and the worst experience by far was a Marathon in 35-406 on the same Quest. It was raining and close to 0 Celsius, my fingers were painful, and I'm not religious but if there is a heaven, I don't think they will let me in only because of my cursing during that tyre change. How I got a Marathon flat in the first place? I cycled past a river, and found a fishing hook in my tyre...

Of course, a DF is easier. If you get one of those, make sure to order an extra wheel, put a little ducttape over the mounting holes and just keep it in your bike. Fastest tyre change you'll ever do - one bolt ;-)

What experience do you have :oops:
None personally, but an acquantaince did; he was riding his motorcycle (low speed, he was still accelerating), fell, and slid against the sidewalk head-first. His head was perfectly fine, but his neck took the full force. I'm not a helmet fan because of that, prefer something that might give me a small bruise but protects the combination of head and neck.

I'd suggest you the TSG Pass or the RuRoC RG1-DX but these ones are very warm so not suitable for Summer. I use the RG1-DX on the trike when it's colder than 10°C. There's also the Gath RV which is a surfing helmet and features a retractable visor you might have a look into. But I don't know how sweaty that one might be in Summer.
But I will take a look at these!
 
Maybe starting with an older and cheaper Quest/Strada/Mango is a good idea?

Since I want E-Assist and if possible a gearing that can be shifted while standing (e.g. Rohloff or Pinion) that'll be difficult to find used, and adding this to a used one makes no sense I think. (I know, Rohloff isn't possible in the DF, there I'll have to cope with standard derailleur-type gearing)

I'll go test ride and either experience "love at first sight" as it was the case with the Scorpion, or try several different models and buy the one which fits best.

Of course, a DF is easier. If you get one of those, make sure to order an extra wheel, put a little ducttape over the mounting holes and just keep it in your bike. Fastest tyre change you'll ever do - one bolt ;-)

I suppose it's similarly easy to change a wheel on a Mango. I read that if you use a Rohloff, this is not put into the wheel but on an extra axle in the center. Great hint.

But I will take a look at these!

Take into account that the clear visor of the TSG Pass fogs up easily. That's why I changed to the RG1-DX. That's a ski helmet with a clip-on chinguard and uses ski goggles as the visor. The FOV is narrower in the vertical direction but still usable.
 
Hey all, small update here after somewhere upwards of 3000 km in the Milan now. It's going slower than I hoped, but I'm getting there!

First velomobile which I haven't thought of selling yet in the first few months :) It's fast, it's reliable, and it's comfortable. Love it to bits! :love:

I did have some issues though, and also had some mods done:
- The (Fratelli?) 406 wheels have both been removed, and will be sent to Velomobil.net for review. Both kept breaking spokes, I guess I've had about 15-20 replaced in the meanwhile. The wheels have been replaced by AlexRims DA16, newly built by Intercity Bike. According to them the old TL Ready wheels are simply not strong enough to handle my weight; Until now it looks as if they're right - the Alex setup is not giving me any issues even though I'm running wider tires at higher pressure;
- I've been fiddling a bit with tires, both front and back. The Conti's are really reliable, but not fast and have a total lack of grip in the wet. The fastest tire I tried was the KHE Mac1, but it's becoming really hard to find and doesn't have a protection layer, so if it's wet it's annoying. I've considered Pro One fronts but my country is a lot of braking and cornering, so I think that'd be an expensive excursion - a friend with a Milan GT Mk5 killed a set of those in 1000 km. Currently I'm running on Maxxis in 38-406 which seem the ultimate combi between speed and reliability. Oh, and they have GRIP! On the rear, I had one sudden blowout on a Continental Contact Speed. Still don't know why, it didn't really damage my trust in the tire yet, but I also don't like them. I'm waiting for a Pro One there (since there's no braking or lifting on that end, I trust it).
- Replaced one of the Cyo Premium headlights with a B+M IQ-XM. Perfect upgrade, although I'm putting an IQ-XE next to it :)
- Drilled a tiny hole in the derailleur cap and fixed it to the bike with a tie wrap. Don't want to lose that!
 
Are you running tubeless? Because other than the old Fratelli rims the AlexRims DA16 are not TL ready (they are missing the TL ready-icon).
Nope, running tubes on the front. Will try tubeless on the rear as soon as my Pro One is in (I still have the Fratelli there, seems to be have less trouble holding up there. Probably due to no braking, spokes running more straight to the hub and/or different lateral forces).

I've witnessed multiple discussions however as to whether the DA16 is Tubeless Compatible, meaning that with a different rim tape and a valve stem, the DA16 can also run tubeless. The edge of the rim looks like it's shaped for it, but I haven't dared to try it as I don't feel like accidentally losing my tire at 60 km/h (even though it's at the front). The explanation on the TRS badge doesn't really clear things up either (see at "Other models"):

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You ride a Milan in the Netherlands? What about the Drempel?
Here in Belgium there are some similar to nice Dutch Drempels but most of them remind me of the Wall of China. It hurts to hear that scratching sound below yourself. Even with the DF it happens quite often that I have unwanted ground contact ...
 
You ride a Milan in the Netherlands? What about the Drempel?
Here in Belgium there are some similar to nice Dutch Drempels but most of them remind me of the Wall of China. It hurts to hear that scratching sound below yourself. Even with the DF it happens quite often that I have unwanted ground contact ...
This might come as a shock to you but the DF XL "Mk2" (latest version = 3, have only done about 5 km in that so not enough experience) has much more problems with speed bumps (drempels) than the Milan. The Milan is lower, but the points at which it is at it's lowest are in more convenient places. I have never scratched the tunnel, only the foot bumps.
On 28mm tires I hit some of them, on the current 38mm I can basically go over anything unless it really is like the wall of China. In those cases I try to re-route for the next time, or just go over slowly and diagonally.
 
Currently I'm running on Maxxis in 38-406 which seem the ultimate combi between speed and reliability. Oh, and they have GRIP!
Maxxis DTH 38-406? Yep they have pretty good grip, but especially in rain the Conti Contact Urban 42-406 (and 47-559 or 40-584 at the rear) have even better grip! Currently hard to get, though.
 
Maxxis DTH 38-406? Yep they have pretty good grip, but especially in rain the Conti Contact Urban 42-406 (and 47-559 or 40-584 at the rear) have even better grip! Currently hard to get, though.
oh the Conti's are fairly easy to buy here, but they're quite slow compared to what Maxxis has to offer. The KHE's really were the best concerning speed. Only tire I tried on the Milan with which I can push it over 80 km/h.
 
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