Charging 750wh battery 80% in 20 min

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rullskidan

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Hello! Gobao is supposed to present a new battery and charger at Eurobike in June that will be able to charge 750wh battery 80% in 20 min. I am not surprised because I follow 2 independent battery cell testers on Patreon (Pajda, Mooch) and they have confirmed that Japanese cells are obsolete and the new Chinese tabless cells can take such high charging speeds without effecting battery cycle life substantially.

Even when they test the Chinese HE cells that are not tabless they have much better cycle life compared to new Panasonic and Samsung cells. Samsung in particular is doing terrible in the tests.

Gobao is currently only used on Hepha bicycles but what is interesting about the engine is the fact that it uses the same mount as Shimano so that makes it possible to install in HP Velotechnik and Azub recumbents when and if the motor becomes common.

36A charging speeds are already available for Hilti power tools so there is no reason why it should not be available for ebikes.

Bosch recently announced "fast charger" 12A that is going to be released in December. I find it the ultimate evidence of the capitulation of German engineering to the Chinese when Avinox already have fast charging 12A for 2 years when Bosch finally are able to catch up.

For me fast charging 36A will be perfect for touring because I free camp and hate being restricted to camp grounds. Fully charge a big battery at a short lunch break or rest will make me motorize my recumbent. For now I have avoided it as it is currently too much hassle.
 
The highest speed that is achieved now Is with Elprog Pulsar 3+, but that's very expensive 800 euro and requires separate power supply so a diy solution almost.
 
rullskidan schrieb:
Hello! Gobao is supposed to present a new battery and charger at Eurobike in June that will be able to charge 750wh battery 80% in 20 min. I am not surprised because I follow 2 independent battery cell testers on Patreon (Pajda, Mooch) and they have confirmed that Japanese cells are obsolete and the new Chinese tabless cells can take such high charging speeds without effecting battery cycle life substantially.

Even when they test the Chinese HE cells that are not tabless they have much better cycle life compared to new Panasonic and Samsung cells. Samsung in particular is doing terrible in the tests.

Gobao is currently only used on Hepha bicycles but what is interesting about the engine is the fact that it uses the same mount as Shimano so that makes it possible to install in HP Velotechnik and Azub recumbents when and if the motor becomes common.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Do you have some links?

rullskidan schrieb:
36A charging speeds are already available for Hilti power tools so there is no reason why it should not be available for ebikes.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Thats a very misleading sentence, because:

-the Hilti C 8D/DC is a dual charger (2x 18A, not 36A)
-it charges 22V batteries
-it charges with meagre 2x 450W
-since the single 450W charger weights 1,45kg, the Hilti C8D/DC dual charger should weight around 2.5-3kg

For comparison:
A 36A charger for 36V ebike batteries would have to produce close to 1500 Watt and would weight 2.5-3kg as well.

rullskidan schrieb:
Bosch recently announced "fast charger" 12A that is going to be released in December. I find it the ultimate evidence of the capitulation of German engineering to the Chinese when Avinox already have fast charging 12A for 2 years when Bosch finally are able to catch up.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
You realise these are just 500W chargers, hmm?

rullskidan schrieb:
For me fast charging 36A will be perfect for touring because I free camp and hate being restricted to camp grounds. Fully charge a big battery at a short lunch break or rest will make me motorize my recumbent. For now I have avoided it as it is currently too much hassle.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Are you prepared to carry a 2.5kg to 3kg charger on your ebike?
 
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I am prepared to carry 2.5-3 kilos if I can charge at 30A but the size is more the issue.

Yes I new 12A is just 500w charger. As for the Hilti I did not look at the specifics closely enough so that was a mistake.
 
rullskidan schrieb:
... Bosch recently announced "fast charger" 12A that is going to be released in December. I find it the ultimate evidence of the capitulation of German engineering to the Chinese when Avinox already have fast charging 12A for 2 years when Bosch finally are able to catch up. ...
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
What capitulation? I don't know of any German fast chargers that are even a few years old. But I own a working chinese fast charger rated at 10A/36V for at least 10 years (or is it already 15 years?).
 
Yes I write that it's sad that in Germany and EU the battery expertise and development is so far behind the Chinese. I live in Sweden and we had the debacle of Northvolt.
 
Marc schrieb:
For comparison:
A 36A charger for 36V ebike batteries would have to produce close to 1500 Watt and would weight 2.5-3kg as well.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Und was mal wieder keiner beachtet: ... auch 1500W aus der Steckdose ziehen.
Bei 750Wh in 20 Min sind es sogar ~2kW.

Das muss die Steckdose / elektrische Anlage auch aushalten / können.
Für 5 Min schafft das jede billig Steckdose ... bei 20 Min kann das schon sehr warm werden.

Wir waren vor ein paar Wochen an einer öffentlichen Ladestation
Ich lade mit max 1000W ... mein Kumpel wollte schlauer sein als ich und hatte ein 1600W Ladegerät.

Stecker rein, Sicherung raus und wir standen blöd da.
Zum Glück war mein Akku noch voll genug und 200m weiter stand ein "Hähnchen-Brater", der uns freundlicherweise hat laden lassen (mit meinem 1000W Ladegerät).

Gruß Jörg
 
rullskidan schrieb:
Yes I write that it's sad that in Germany and EU the battery expertise and development is so far behind the Chinese.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
We (EU + DE) never had much expertise, development, or lithium battery production to beginn with. The main driver to scale-up production would had to be German car manufacturers, but their management was busy cheating regulators...

Veritasium made a very good (as always) and pretty comprehensible docu about Lithium battery development:


rullskidan schrieb:
I live in Sweden and we had the debacle of Northvolt.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
They tried to run (expand rapidly) before being able to crawl (build functional batteries). It seems top managements primary expertise was bullshitting (ex-Tesla managers) and they tried to cover-up their failures als long as possible. We got a failed Northvolt project in Schleswig Holstein as well... :rolleyes:
 
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Edit:

JKL schrieb:
Ich lade mit max 1000W
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Nicht weil mein Akku nicht mehr verträgt (der könnte ~4kW), sondern weil ich den Steckdosen ( auch meinen eigenen ) nicht mehr zutraue.
Mein Vermieter musste nicht davon ausgehen, das da mal Jemand auf die Idee kommt ein Fz zu laden.
Das kann/wird hoffendlich in 10 Jahren anders sein, aber im Moment reitze ich das theoretisch Mögliche nicht aus.

rullskidan schrieb:
I free camp and hate being restricted to camp grounds. Fully charge a big battery at a short lunch break or rest will make me motorize my recumbent.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Für mich sind 1,5h Mittagspause auf einer Urlaubs-Reise völlig ok.
Und Abends kann man noch mal kurz an eine Ladestelle, damit sicher über die Nacht kommt.

Eine Langstrecken-Reise mit E führt im Moment noch zwangsläufig von Steckdose zu Steckdose.
Mit einer Laderate von 1C (~1 Stunde bis voll) halte ich das aber für erträglich.

Gruß Jörg
 
Marc schrieb:
We (EU + DE) never had much expertise, development, or lithium battery production to beginn with. The main driver to scale-up production would had to be German car manufacturers, but their management was busy cheating regulators...

Veritasium made a very good (as always) and pretty comprehensible docu about Lithium battery development:



They tried to run (expand rapidly) before being able to crawl (build functional batteries). It seems top managements primary expertise was bullshitting (ex-Tesla managers) and they tried to cover-up their failures als long as possible. We got a failed Northvolt project in Schleswig Holstein as well...:rolleyes:
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
From the source I trust the most the failure was a combination of hubris and getting fouled by the Chinese suppliers.
 
rullskidan schrieb:
The highest speed that is achieved now Is with Elprog Pulsar 3+, but that's very expensive 800 euro and requires separate power supply so a diy solution almost.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

my surron aftermarket battery charges at 20 amp at 94 v cutoff with a similar charger as this on ( goes to 35A but that would take up a whole powerline ) https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005...3520282.1005007907067361&gatewayAdapt=glo2nld . the one that only goes to 60v max can hit 50A if you have enough of the new gen tabless or pouch cells with high cap you could hit that but i would create quite a bit of heat. and these are are power supplies used in high end communication rigs so build quality is more then ok .
 
indeed but most bms now have temp protection and you need to watch the charge rate per cell is you have have cells that can handle 15 amps max charge and you put 10 in parallel you can theoretically charge the pack at 150 amps but they will create heat and have a shorter lifetime, so if you would put in 30 or 50 amps it would not heat up as much .
 
C rate is C rate. If you charge 0 to 80% in 20 min it is a C eate of 2.4. No matter how the cells are arranged. With 750Wh this is 1800W.

Such agressive charging googles to 20 to 30 degree temperature rise. Means your pack needs at least air cooling of the cells, not to exceed 45 degree. Which, if you look at tool batteries, is what they actually do. They flush the housing with cooling air.

A BMS that shuts down saves the cells, but also prevents you from charging. ;-)
 
Chargers

Huawei rectifier chargers are popular for EUC users and they can charge with 35A at a weight of approximately 2 kilo. Avinox GAn 12A charger weights 1 kilo and is smaller.

Roger charger, PIDZOOM charger, Hou Nin, Guli, GTK battery, escootparts, evfreaks - they all sell the same Chinese products with different names.

Some comments from users of these chargers:

"Huawei 4850G2 - By the way, around 2kW per charger is a real limit without additional cooling! Which is about 35A"

"I have two R4875g1 units in use. They remain completely silent up to 35A without additional cooling."

"I now also have an R4850G2 for comparison. While the devices are almost identical in construction to the R4875G1, the R4875G1 is quieter in comparison, despite offering the same performance."

"Regarding your question: When the R4875G1 is charging at its rated power (4 kW), it will not only be loud but also very, very hot. If 75 A is truly required, it's best to use two devices, each with a 40 A load. Between 25 A and 35 A, the device will get warm, but surprisingly little hot air will be produced"

The noise level from them are demonstrated in this YouTube videos:



It's not like the first one is silent in any way so I don't understand the comment from one of the users of the 4875g1 model? Unfortunately it's not something I would be comfortable bringing at a cafe or restaurant. But for public EV chargers they are perfect but then you need an extra adapter that adds weight.

Batteries

If there is no need for fast charging the cheapest place to get batteries with quality cells is without a doubt pwspower.com.

They use Samsung 50G cells and they have been verified to be reliable by Pajda,

"Samsung 50G(1) also finished 1000 cycles in both 100% and 90% DoD tests with outstanding results."

A 1200W 48V battery cost 240 euro incl. shipping from German warehouse.

For higher quality battery with the same cells the only verified battery builder since many years is em3ev and that is probably the better choice for solar bike or longer tours if fast charging is not necessary.

Trusted sources for battery cells for d.i.y builders:

Shenzhen Vapcell Technology Co., Ltd.

QueenBattery

Sklep na oprogramowaniu PrestaShop
queenbattery.com.cn queenbattery.com.cn

nkon.nl

As for myself I don't have the skills for building batteries but one alternativ could be:

infinite-battery.com

Infinite Battery

The only universally compatible and repairable battery.
infinite-battery.com infinite-battery.com

But the BMS for that system is limited to 20A and it's only available right now for 18650 cells.

The advantage is that it can be taken apart quickly for transport by airplane and it will then meet regulations if you pack the individual cells in tape and ziplock bags for example.

As I am not confident enough to do my own batteries so for fast charging I would have to rely on Amorge and RS50 cells. The RS50 cells are rated for 15A charge max per individual cell so they can handle 2C (40A) charge rate without issues. In a 48V 13s4p configuration that means 60A should be the theoretical max charge rate the battery can take which is the same as 3C.

Tabless cells can handle these charge rates without effecting the cycle life and without active cooling as been demonstrated by Pajda:



But when I asked Amorge they recommend a max charge rate of 12A that leaves me sceptical. Are they just trying to shield themselves from warranty claims? The continued discharge for the same battery is rated as 80A.

General foughts about motors

Even if Gobao does introduce the technique it will still be a locked system.

I want an open system if all my dreams can come true. Gobao has no service in Sweden and they do not supply spare parts to private persons.

For engines with bottom bracket mounting without a special boom there is nothing that interest me. The bafang and tongshen motor are too loud and the Q-factor is bad for recumbent + drag when not assisted is terrible.

For special mount boom there is currently STEPS (Azub + HP) + Bosch (Azub) + Bafang (Tempelman). They have better Q-factor but still wider than the 152 mm I get unassisted with Cues road 2x11.

Azub has boom only for CX gen5 and the smallest Q-factor you can achieve is 172 mm.

You can find Q-factors for most e-mtb engines here:


Some ebike motors now have very small Q-factors but they are all OEM locked.

I would have liked a boom mount for Yamaha because you can run them on 3 party battery with a dongle from Cosas or you can solder battery chip (https://avdweb.nl/popular/maxun-e-kit/battery-hack) , unfortunately no such boom is available.

There is now a chip you can install for Bosch to run 3 party battery but it's a complicated system with many limitations. It's max charge speed is 6A. You can read more here:

www.driveunitfix.com

Bosch Range Extender | Drive Unit Repairs

www.driveunitfix.com

It's not totally obvious from the information but you can use 3 party battery without the original Bosch.
 
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