J
_jörg steiper
Ich hatte mich vor einiger Zeit angeboten einen Kommentar von Robert zu den Lieferzeiten etc. zu bekommen. Leider hatte ich es irgendwie verbaselt und es ist mir erst vorgestern wieder eingefallen<img src=http://bilder.parsimony.net/smilies/sauer.gif alt=sauer>. Also habe ich es da sofort nachgeholt. Und Robert hat auch stante pede geantwortet. Hier also seine Antwort ungekürzt und unkommentiert:
<i>
Theorethically, if I had the means (read: money) to order and buy,
and pay for everything that I might need for the tricycles I'd like to
build, they(trikes) could "pop out" fast, probably three-four each
week. Unfortunately, as you probably know by now, it's never that
simple. The reason is simple: we get one order at the time, sometimes
two at once. That is 1800 Euro if the customer(s) order two frame sets
which is the most common case. So, let's go from there. The minimum
amount of tubing I can order (yes, I order it and wait between two
weeks and two months before it gets here from Germany through
a Hungarian trader) so, the minimum for each calibration (size and
quality) is either 100kg or 100 meters, whatever comes first. We use
10x1, 12x1, 18x1, 22x1, 22x1.2, 25x1, 25.4x1.5, 28x1, 40x1, 40x1.2
45x1, 45x1.5 and 50x1mm for our trikes. The average price is
around 15EUR/kg, plus 0.5 EUR for transportation for each kg and 20%
import duty for the complete amount. The usual amount we spend on each
purchase is around 1200-1600 EUR per delivery, fortunately, we get
quite a lot tubing for that money, but the aforementioned two-frame
deposit barely covers one order session. Beside that, we are often
limited when we need to buy some other things, for example, the rod
ends, 100pcs minimum, 7.6 EUR each. Then, there come the drop outs, BB
shells, rims, disc brake hubs and other things we need to buy bulk
(big quantities) and the Greenspeed seat covers and other stuff. Just
to get the work started, one has to have a 7-8000 EUR invested into
basic materials and parts (no bicycle parts included here)... Ok, this
is not exactly an answer, but gets you the idea about the costs.
In 2003, we had exactly 22 trike orders, and a few minor other jobs
(garage doors and not trike related stuff), in 12 months, I made 5528
EUR total earning, which is 460 per month, and I saved nothing.
Everything I earned, went to paying bills and expenses. My
co-worker/partner, made 4200 EUR and we have one more helper who makes
1 EUR per working hour. All the rest is invested into tools and
materials. The problem is that the number of produced trikes is very
small on yearly basis. Not even two per month. If we could have at
least one each week (50+/year) some money could be invested into more
materials and building some frames in advance. But I can't expect
these figures to become reality until we really get such number of
orders. It's a closed circle. To get more orders, we need to have
built frames, so we can send them within several weeks after ordering,
to send frames to dealers, but as you see, they also either don't want
to risk or don't have the money to invest. To build frames in advance,
we need money in advance, and as you might ask now why don't we loan
from a bank, it's simple, my bank asks for a 10.000 EUR deposit to
give me 10.000 EUR loan. If I had the 10.000 EUR cash, would I ask for
a 10.000 EUR loan??? So, there is no other way out but praying for
more orders and hoping for the best. Tens of ideas and plans for
various vehicles and solutions are on hold because we simply can't
finance them. A quad, tandem and other stuff are all just ideas we
can't build and test and finally offer to the market because there is
never enough money to finance them. I could continue whining how my
miserable I am because of this, but it wouldn't change anything. More
orders could. But I guess, I'm not that lucky...
For dealer, or someone who would see the benefit in some form of
investment, we could lower the prices significantly, but no one seems
to be interested in a line production. Originally, three, almost four
years ago when I started with trikes, I had an idea that I could
design a trike that could be built in the local bike factory, and the
estimated final price for such a trike was around 150 EUR at the time.
I mean production price, with 2000 made each year. In the meantime the
bike factory went down, I think they are looking for a foreign buyer
but I also think that 51% of it still belongs to German BIRIA or
HANSEATIC if these companies exist at all. I don't think they would be
interested in recumbent trikes.
Ah, and of course, one more detail. We were always trying to offer a
less expensive solution. The last 20-25 asking people asked for
Rohloff or similar equipment. That would be like putting a Lamborghini
engine into a Seicento or Panda. Doesn't make much sense, now, does
it???
</i>
Ich hoffe, Ihr seht mir meine Vergesslichkeit nach...<img src=http://bilder.parsimony.net/smilies/zwinker.gif alt=zwinker>
Ciao,
Jörg
<i>
Theorethically, if I had the means (read: money) to order and buy,
and pay for everything that I might need for the tricycles I'd like to
build, they(trikes) could "pop out" fast, probably three-four each
week. Unfortunately, as you probably know by now, it's never that
simple. The reason is simple: we get one order at the time, sometimes
two at once. That is 1800 Euro if the customer(s) order two frame sets
which is the most common case. So, let's go from there. The minimum
amount of tubing I can order (yes, I order it and wait between two
weeks and two months before it gets here from Germany through
a Hungarian trader) so, the minimum for each calibration (size and
quality) is either 100kg or 100 meters, whatever comes first. We use
10x1, 12x1, 18x1, 22x1, 22x1.2, 25x1, 25.4x1.5, 28x1, 40x1, 40x1.2
45x1, 45x1.5 and 50x1mm for our trikes. The average price is
around 15EUR/kg, plus 0.5 EUR for transportation for each kg and 20%
import duty for the complete amount. The usual amount we spend on each
purchase is around 1200-1600 EUR per delivery, fortunately, we get
quite a lot tubing for that money, but the aforementioned two-frame
deposit barely covers one order session. Beside that, we are often
limited when we need to buy some other things, for example, the rod
ends, 100pcs minimum, 7.6 EUR each. Then, there come the drop outs, BB
shells, rims, disc brake hubs and other things we need to buy bulk
(big quantities) and the Greenspeed seat covers and other stuff. Just
to get the work started, one has to have a 7-8000 EUR invested into
basic materials and parts (no bicycle parts included here)... Ok, this
is not exactly an answer, but gets you the idea about the costs.
In 2003, we had exactly 22 trike orders, and a few minor other jobs
(garage doors and not trike related stuff), in 12 months, I made 5528
EUR total earning, which is 460 per month, and I saved nothing.
Everything I earned, went to paying bills and expenses. My
co-worker/partner, made 4200 EUR and we have one more helper who makes
1 EUR per working hour. All the rest is invested into tools and
materials. The problem is that the number of produced trikes is very
small on yearly basis. Not even two per month. If we could have at
least one each week (50+/year) some money could be invested into more
materials and building some frames in advance. But I can't expect
these figures to become reality until we really get such number of
orders. It's a closed circle. To get more orders, we need to have
built frames, so we can send them within several weeks after ordering,
to send frames to dealers, but as you see, they also either don't want
to risk or don't have the money to invest. To build frames in advance,
we need money in advance, and as you might ask now why don't we loan
from a bank, it's simple, my bank asks for a 10.000 EUR deposit to
give me 10.000 EUR loan. If I had the 10.000 EUR cash, would I ask for
a 10.000 EUR loan??? So, there is no other way out but praying for
more orders and hoping for the best. Tens of ideas and plans for
various vehicles and solutions are on hold because we simply can't
finance them. A quad, tandem and other stuff are all just ideas we
can't build and test and finally offer to the market because there is
never enough money to finance them. I could continue whining how my
miserable I am because of this, but it wouldn't change anything. More
orders could. But I guess, I'm not that lucky...
For dealer, or someone who would see the benefit in some form of
investment, we could lower the prices significantly, but no one seems
to be interested in a line production. Originally, three, almost four
years ago when I started with trikes, I had an idea that I could
design a trike that could be built in the local bike factory, and the
estimated final price for such a trike was around 150 EUR at the time.
I mean production price, with 2000 made each year. In the meantime the
bike factory went down, I think they are looking for a foreign buyer
but I also think that 51% of it still belongs to German BIRIA or
HANSEATIC if these companies exist at all. I don't think they would be
interested in recumbent trikes.
Ah, and of course, one more detail. We were always trying to offer a
less expensive solution. The last 20-25 asking people asked for
Rohloff or similar equipment. That would be like putting a Lamborghini
engine into a Seicento or Panda. Doesn't make much sense, now, does
it???
</i>
Ich hoffe, Ihr seht mir meine Vergesslichkeit nach...<img src=http://bilder.parsimony.net/smilies/zwinker.gif alt=zwinker>
Ciao,
Jörg
wie Greenspeed oder Trice oder AVD hängen bleiben. Und trotzdem: wir kaufen die Katze im Sack - denn so gut wie niemand weiß, wie sich das Trike wirklich fährt, wie der Sitz etc. gestaltet ist, geschweige denn über die tatsächliche Qualität und Haltbarkeit Bescheid. (Dafür hat es aber auch den Reiz des Besonderen)